[Jeffro19]

Originally Posted by High Magnitude

They should just make a Cruze or Malibu coupe with a slightly detuned version of the I4T in the ATS 2.0 and base Camaro.

This would be awesome in the Cruze.

[396ssrat]

Modern pricing does not match modern incomes. 7 year loans on a car with a 60k mile warranty just don't add up. Yes, it may be this way so they can sell more extended warranties but that just adds to the price of the already overpriced car. Yes the government and insurance companies have stuck their noses deep into the auto manufacturing business and are doing their very best to take driving responsibilities from the source, the driver. This over reach by government and lobbyists has caused our freedoms to diminish as Americans. The unions take heat for driving prices north of reasonable but regulations and unfair trade laws are the real culprit. Something is going to change or the auto industry will collapse.

[Camaro1LTBA]

I'm just going to jump in and say that my first 5th gen was the 2010 LS and it was exactly what I wanted and the price was amazing. I probably wouldn't be lurking this forum now if it wasn't for that car getting me in.

Was sketchy about the black heritage wheels at first, but it was a 2010 LS black with the black heritage wheels. Complete base model manual with zero add ons. I received so many compliments on that Camaro... more so than the silver 1LT I'm leasing now.

Was really hoping for an actual base model. Right now, I'm not sure at all where I'm going. If I got what I "want" in the Camaro then I'm priced out, if I get a base model I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth.

I had a Mustang GT a while back (not at all opposed to cross-shopping) and find myself talking to my Ford friend more and more about the new Mustang considering it's less money and he works for the dealership as well.

I am a bit disappointed with the Camaro pricing and lack of a base model manual that would appeal to me.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Goblue1313

Would be great to see a Cruze coupe. But if they put the 2.0T in it it can't be detuned or it would get slaughtered by the Focus ST. The reality is that there won't be another small couple under the Camaro and if by some miracle that happened it definitely won't be rwd. Small sized two door coupes have fallen out of favor. Even in the hot hatch realm only VW still offers a two door. The best that can realistically be hoped for would be a Cruze SS sedan or maybe 5 door. Although the pics I've seen of the possible 5 door is not really a looker. But a Cruze SS with the 2.0T at its current 270hp could be a nice, sporty little hot rod that could be tuned into the 300+hp range and and still be really well optioned out in the low to mid 20k range. For some reason GM has completely surrendered that market to Ford and the imports. That Cruze with that engine could be the gateway drug to the Camaro you're looking for.

How exactly does a 270 HP Cruze get slaughtered by a 252 HP Focus? Just curious.

And lest you all forget, GM had the 2.0T in the Cobalt SS coupe and Sedan. A kick a$$ car with a really Sh()ty interior. It actually had a very nice upgraded chassis that worked very well. At the time, this car held the record at the 'ring for FWD cars. It sold as crappy as that interior which is why we forget about it.

[Number 3]

Oh and $27,000 in 2009 is $24,100. A brand new Camaro 1LT in 2009 was, drum roll please..................$23,800. So with the far better car with content, technology, safety etc. it is only a $300 bump. You guys aren't seeing the miracle here. And it really is incredible that GM is giving us a car that weighs less, performs better (specs to be released), likely gets better mileage (specs to be released) and for the equivalent of $300 more.

This is a good thing. Not sure why this is even an issue or why suddenly GM needs a lower end car when they've delivered a far better car with in 1% in inflation adjusted dollars.

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh and $27,000 in 2009 is $24,100. A brand new Camaro 1LT in 2009 was, drum roll please..................$23,800. So with the far better car with content, technology, safety etc. it is only a $300 bump. You guys aren't seeing the miracle here. And it really is incredible that GM is giving us a car that weighs less, performs better (specs to be released), likely gets better mileage (specs to be released) and for the equivalent of $300 more.

This is a good thing. Not sure why this is even an issue or why suddenly GM needs a lower end car when they've delivered a far better car with in 1% in inflation adjusted dollars.

I don't think it is so much that people disagree with you it is just that the price for a Camaro is not what it used to be and that it is out of range for the 1st time enthusiast or the man that doesn't need all the goodies that has a hard time buying a $30,000 dollar base model V-6. I am in that camp. Pony cars for a lot of us are 2nd cars, sometimes a 3rd. Spending that kind of money on something that is not used all the time is tough for a lot of us. Even if you can afford it something doesn't feel right.

I love the new Camaro and "for the money" I can't disagree with you. But what some of us would like to see is a lighter weight performance coupe, manual transmission (for me anyways) fun to drive, hatchback if it needs to be, good looking, fast, $20,000-$25,000 tops, back to basics All American Style Pony car......is that too much to ask?


P.S. maybe call it Nova or something, or my favorite Panther......

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

I don't think it is so much that people disagree with you it is just that the price for a Camaro is not what it used to be and that it is out of range for the 1st time enthusiast or the man that doesn't need all the goodies that has a hard time buying a $30,000 dollar base model V-6. I am in that camp. Pony cars for a lot of us are 2nd cars, sometimes a 3rd. Spending that kind of money on something that is not used all the time is tough for a lot of us. Even if you can afford it something doesn't feel right.

I love the new Camaro and "for the money" I can't disagree with you. But what some of us would like to see is a lighter weight performance coupe, manual transmission (for me anyways) fun to drive, hatchback if it needs to be, good looking, fast, $20,000-$25,000 tops, back to basics All American Style Pony car......is that too much to ask?


P.S. maybe call it Nova or something, or my favorite Panther......

Where you getting a $30k base V6? That is a loaded 2LT price. And just in case everyone has forgot...the base 1LT is actually cheaper this gen than a 2015 is.

2015 1LT starts at $26,005
2016 1LT at $25,700

Technically you can get a base '16 1LT LGX starting at $27,195. Dropping the 1LS model costs everyone $1995 more. But I would wager that accounts for less than 5% of sales in the entire 5th gen.

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Where you getting a $30k base V6? That is a loaded 2LT price. And just in case everyone has forgot...the base 1LT is actually cheaper this gen than a 2015 is.

2015 1LT starts at $26,005
2016 1LT at $25,700

Technically you can get a base '16 1LT LGX starting at $27,195. Dropping the 1LS model costs everyone $1995 more. But I would wager that accounts for less than 5% of sales in the entire 5th gen.

Yeah your right, before you add destination, tax title etc.... And I am one of the 5% that has an LS so my point is that I may be one of the 5% that will not upgrade, and when I look down the GM ladder I see no alternative but if there was an alternative I would be interested. It could be a coupe based off of another car.... I am ok with that. I am not slamming the 6th gen in anyway, it has become what it has become.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ssrs396

Yeah your right, before you add destination, tax title etc.... And I am one of the 5% that has an LS so my point is that I may be one of the 5% that will not upgrade, and when I look down the GM ladder I see no alternative but if there was an alternative I would be interested. It could be a coupe based off of another car.... I am ok with that. I am not slamming the 6th gen in anyway, it has become what it has become.

IMO, if you're budget is that tight that $2k is a make or brake situation....I'd be buying used. There's definitely $2k worth of features/performance over the 5th and 6th gen base cars. While I know some people don't care for some of that, I would think the reduced weight, better interior, and better performance are something everyone would value. The same thing is occurring on the Mustang side. Aside from rental sales and the few diehard, the Ecoboost is selling more than the cheaper V6. So their buyers are seeing better value for spending a bit more too.

[Goblue1313]

Originally Posted by Number 3

How exactly does a 270 HP Cruze get slaughtered by a 252 HP Focus? Just curious.

And lest you all forget, GM had the 2.0T in the Cobalt SS coupe and Sedan. A kick a$$ car with a really Sh()ty interior. It actually had a very nice upgraded chassis that worked very well. At the time, this car held the record at the 'ring for FWD cars. It sold as crappy as that interior which is why we forget about it.

I said that in response to the suggestion that was made that they should detune the engine from 270hp to something lower and put it in the Cruze. A Cruze with a detained 2.0T probably would be soundly beaten by a 252hp focus st as the st already weighs about 200lb less than a comparable Cruze.

I'm not forgetting the cobalt ss. You're right it had a lot of the attributes people want out of an inexpensive hotrod. You're also right that it had a low end interior that didn't do it any favors.

It's with preciously that background that leaves me wondering why GM has abandoned that niche. With as capable a platform as the Cruze is it is begging for a power and handling package to let it take the fight to the ford and the imports. As I said above using the 2.0T from the camaro gives it a great power plant to start with. Plus that creates a path up for the younger kids that get into a Cruze and hop it up. When they are ready to move up to something more stylish and with more features the camaro has the appeal to them that it uses the engine they've learned to hop up. Much like generations past learned to work on the small block V8 in the sedans and coupes they could afford and then when they got older and had bigger incomes moved to camaros or corvettes.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Goblue1313

I said that in response to the suggestion that was made that they should detune the engine from 270hp to something lower and put it in the Cruze. A Cruze with a detained 2.0T probably would be soundly beaten by a 252hp focus st as the st already weighs about 200lb less than a comparable Cruze.

I'm not forgetting the cobalt ss. You're right it had a lot of the attributes people want out of an inexpensive hotrod. You're also right that it had a low end interior that didn't do it any favors.

It's with preciously that background that leaves me wondering why GM has abandoned that niche. With as capable a platform as the Cruze is it is begging for a power and handling package to let it take the fight to the ford and the imports. As I said above using the 2.0T from the camaro gives it a great power plant to start with. Plus that creates a path up for the younger kids that get into a Cruze and hop it up. When they are ready to move up to something more stylish and with more features the camaro has the appeal to them that it uses the engine they've learned to hop up. Much like generations past learned to work on the small block V8 in the sedans and coupes they could afford and then when they got older and had bigger incomes moved to camaros or corvettes.

Even if they put the 2.0T from the current Malibu in the Cruze it wouldn't get soundly trashed by the Focus ST. The detuned FWD 2.0T is still 250. And with GM's ability to get a car to handle exceeding that from Ford, I think it would be pretty close.

Remember too, the GM does have a 2.0T competitor............kind of.............in the Buick Verano. It has a 250 HP 2.0T and does pretty decent. It's just not set up as a handling car. It's set up more for ride. So that powertrain in a Cruze, tuned to handle as well would be formidable and easily compete with the ST. While the Verano is a bit slower to 60, they are equal in the 1/4 mile in at least one review.

GM, more like Chevy, left this niche simply because sales weren't there. It was a numbers game.

Now with the new Cruze on the way and rumors of finally getting a hatch and Mark Reuss running the show..................maybe we finally get that car.

[Number 3]

To counter previous points, though, and continue the discussion. If GM really is taking the Camaro "up market" in price and content there are really only a few reasons for that. One is to make a better car AND make more money. Another would be to clear space in the show room for something to slide in underneath.

Keep in mind, I don't they've really done that with $27,000, but everyone is complaining like it's a price doubling.

Ford will more than likely hurt Mustang sales with the Focus RS. It may not be Huge, but that car will pull sales from even GT buyers.

This is the same discussion as when everyone piles on about needing a Chevelle or Nova.

GM has a paltry teeny tiny market share of about 16%. I remember when I started working there and it was still in the 40s. GM can no longer support cannibalization. That is what killed Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn.

If you put any other coupe in the showroom next to Camaro, some one will buy it. And if they did it right many people would. That "other" car also needs a business case too. But GM would likely lose more Camaro sales than they would win Toyota, Subaru, Ford sales. And that is a bad thing for the Camaro business case.

So higher prices and lower volumes in preparation for something else? Maybe.

What that is.............another discussion full of hope and speculation. And from my years on this site, we are pretty good at that.

[ssrs396]

The base price for my v6 13 was $23345. This is over $3000 more for the new v6 and this is my point. I can buy a v8 if I want too but with 3 Camaros already and the price of the v8 getting mighty close to used zl1s has had me looking at different options. The OP wants an 18-23+ max V6 that is fun to drive with American styling.....whats wrong with that? Budget determines what you can afford, but I determine what I want and what I need in a car. I refuse to pay $30gs for a base V6 even if the value is there.

I had a chance to upgrade in 13 to a brand new 1le for 33500 during an end of the year sale .... and yes the new ss is comparable but it will be over 4000 dollars more for the base!!! I appreciate the fact that chevy has worked hard on the competitive side of the car I only wish it would have worked just as hard on the price. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[ssrs396]

Originally Posted by Number 3

To counter previous points, though, and continue the discussion. If GM really is taking the Camaro "up market" in price and content there are really only a few reasons for that. One is to make a better car AND make more money. Another would be to clear space in the show room for something to slide in underneath.

Keep in mind, I don't they've really done that with $27,000, but everyone is complaining like it's a price doubling.

Ford will more than likely hurt Mustang sales with the Focus RS. It may not be Huge, but that car will pull sales from even GT buyers.

This is the same discussion as when everyone piles on about needing a Chevelle or Nova.

GM has a paltry teeny tiny market share of about 16%. I remember when I started working there and it was still in the 40s. GM can no longer support cannibalization. That is what killed Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn.

If you put any other coupe in the showroom next to Camaro, some one will buy it. And if they did it right many people would. That "other" car also needs a business case too. But GM would likely lose more Camaro sales than they would win Toyota, Subaru, Ford sales. And that is a bad thing for the Camaro business case.

So higher prices and lower volumes in preparation for something else? Maybe.

What that is.............another discussion full of hope and speculation. And from my years on this site, we are pretty good at that.

I see what you are saying and I think you are right but I believe if you can seduce entry level buyers into your brand you will win in the long run.