[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

3 statements here, 1 the LS7 was not the baddest GM engine ever build the 1970 LS6 454 CID NA, in the Chevelle was insurance rated at 450HP. But real world numbers put it at 575HP.

2. This HP upmanship has to end government regs and Cafe' will kill it. Just guessing 2018 is a big jump for Café'

3. Ford has twice the operating capital GM has an can take bigger risks. Ford has 2016 GT350/R. 2017 GT500. sell in limited numbers, 2018 break out the 600hp V6 emission compliant engine for future vehicles.

That was also when they rated engines in gross hp. Perhaps they should have rated it 575 then, but by today's standards it would be back in the 400s. That big drop in hp in the early 70s was due to a change in how they rate engines. Happened again in a smaller scale more recently too. Stock for stock, I highly doubt it made more than the current ls7.

[Jeb114]

From the Book History of Chevy.

In 1970, GM pushed the performance bar higher with the introduction of the Chevy 454 V8. Unlike the popular Chevy 427 that was used in a wide variety of automobiles, the 454 was used only in high performance cars like the Chevy Camaro, Corvette and Chevelle. There were 3 different variations of the 454 that came onto the drawing board at GM during the 70s; the LS5, the LS6, and the LS7 which was designed but not produced for the general public most likely due to the massive smog restrictions that started lurking about in the early 70s. . Although the LS7 454 never made its way into any cars sold to the public, it was sold as a crate engine available through Chevrolet and claimed to produce around 500 horsepower.
The 1970 production models of the 454 put out the most horsepower with the LS5 claiming 360 horsepower and the LS6 putting out a mighty 450 horsepower. As with many high performance engines during the muscle car wars, there were lots of rumors flying around in regards to actually how much horsepower the 454 engines put out as opposed to what Chevrolet was reporting. Some say that both the LS5 and LS6 454 motors were underrated by about 50 bhp. Of course this has never been officially proven but it could be a good argument for discussion.

[Bhobbs]

Yes, like I said, those are gross numbers, not net like modern engines.

An LS6 Chevelle that was professionally restored to factory new made 285 hp on a chassis dyno. That's about 350 flywheel net hp.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/add...car-dyno-wars/

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Jeb114

3 statements here, 1 the LS7 was not the baddest GM engine ever build the 1970 LS6 454 CID NA, in the Chevelle was insurance rated at 450HP. But real world numbers put it at 575HP.

Originally Posted by Jeb114

From the Book History of Chevy.
...
the LS6 putting out a mighty 450 horsepower.
...
Some say that both the LS5 and LS6 454 motors were underrated by about 50 bhp.

How does 450 (advertised) + 50 (under rating) = 575?

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Here's how I would build it. If GM builds it like this, I would trade up.
LT1, dry sump with no AFM
Torsen LSD from Z/28
MM6 TR6060 and 3.91 rear gears
Monotube hydraulic dampers on all four corners
Stiffer springs, sways and bushings over SS
Square tires on forged wheels
6 piston front, 4 piston rear Brembos with two piece rotors
Full aero
Different heat extractor on hood, similar to ATS-V, CTS-V and C7
Performance Data Recorder

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

How? So you think a new z/28 will be as fast or faster than the 5thGen version but GM will be able to do it cheaper?

Easily.

New chassis is far better and lighter. Won't take near as much r and d/ engineering you name it to bring the car to worked over zeta level.

Engineering advancements should also allow you to do more with less. Example. To make a car perform on a level of a 16ss even 10 years ago would have been through the roof in price for the segment.

If they want to stay competitive they will find a way.

I also believe the z28 was overpriced. Nothing in the market at the time really forcing them to bring the price down. Maybe they got greedy and asked too much for it. If the gt350 performs like everyone is thinking it will force gm to bring the price down. If your inferring gm isn't capable of matching ford on a price/performance basis...that's your opinion.
Give them some time we haven't even seen the ss yet.

[chain777]

Originally Posted by toehead93

Remember the Z28 can run six seconds quicker on a dry track, the best the was recorded with wet conditions so even if The reported 350R times are accurate thebZ28 is still a little faster on than track. With that said that is close enough imo to be in the same league on most tracks. Can't wait to see the comparisons soln

I really wish Chevy wouldn't have released that "last miracle fasted lap that was caught on video, but just happened to have some rain at the end". And then insinuate that a much faster lap was possible. All it did was fuel speculation and debate about what times were really possible. But I guess that's exactly what they wanted.

As far as the GT350 time, pure bs posted by a shady website and not endorsed by Ford.

Originally Posted by IOMike

The LT4 exists, so the Zl1 should come as a 2017. This high HP NA engine everyone wants doesn't, to my knowledge, so that will be a late 2017 or 2018 depending on how much work is done on it.

I'm not convinced that Chevy is going to have a direct competitor to the Voodoo. They never did for the Roadrunner last generation. You could say the LS7, but that was in another price class. I just can't see a Camaro priced the same as a GT350 with a specialty engine. I think it's going to be like last generation. Something a little below, like the 1LE, and something above, like the ZL1. It's gotta be tough to build 500 plus horsepower NA OHV V8 these days while maintaining emissions and MPG's. Even the 526HP Voodoo is getting hit with a GG tax, while the 662HP Trinity squeaked by with forced induction and tall gears.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Easily.

New chassis is far better and lighter. Won't take near as much r and d/ engineering you name it to bring the car to worked over zeta level.

Engineering advancements should also allow you to do more with less. Example. To make a car perform on a level of a 16ss even 10 years ago would have been through the roof in price for the segment.

If they want to stay competitive they will find a way.

I also believe the z28 was overpriced. Nothing in the market at the time really forcing them to bring the price down. Maybe they got greedy and asked too much for it. If the gt350 performs like everyone is thinking it will force gm to bring the price down. If your inferring gm isn't capable of matching ford on a price/performance basis...that's your opinion.
Give them some time we haven't even seen the ss yet.

I agree completely. Too many people sell the engineering prowess of both Ford and GM short. There is no doubt in my mind that each can match the other if given the greenlight, budget and appropriate resources from the top brass.

You make good points on the benefits of the Alpha chassis, but it is still going to be a challenge to build a car that matches or exceeds the 5thGen z/28's performance and offer it at a considerably lower MSRP. Again, can it be done? Absolutely. Will Al O. and company be given the leeway to do it? Time will tell.

[shakooza]

I don't see Chevy having a huge gap between the SS and the Z28 for performance. There is money sitting on the table for a cheap SS performance pack that can trickle down from the ZL1. It will cost GM little to no money to smack some of the go fast parts on the SS from the ZL1 effort.

[BoostedX2]

Originally Posted by chain777

I really wish Chevy wouldn't have released that "last miracle fasted lap that was caught on video, but just happened to have some rain at the end". And then insinuate that a much faster lap was possible. All it did was fuel speculation and debate about what times were really possible. But I guess that's exactly what they wanted.

As far as the GT350 time, pure bs posted by a shady website and not endorsed by Ford.



I'm not convinced that Chevy is going to have a direct competitor to the Voodoo. They never did for the Roadrunner last generation. You could say the LS7, but that was in another price class. I just can't see a Camaro priced the same as a GT350 with a specialty engine. I think it's going to be like last generation. Something a little below, like the 1LE, and something above, like the ZL1. It's gotta be tough to build 500 plus horsepower NA OHV V8 these days while maintaining emissions and MPG's. Even the 526HP Voodoo is getting hit with a GG tax, while the 662HP Trinity squeaked by with forced induction and tall gears.

I am sure with all the resources of GM powertrain and given a modern DI V8 it can be done..Do they have the will and if ford can do it for 50K AND make a profit why wouldn't GM?

[Jeffro19]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

I agree completely. Too many people sell the engineering prowess of both Ford and GM short. There is no doubt in my mind that each can match the other if given the greenlight, budget and appropriate resources from the top brass.

You make good points on the benefits of the Alpha chassis, but it is still going to be a challenge to build a car that matches or exceeds the 5thGen z/28's performance and offer it at a considerably lower MSRP. Again, can it be done? Absolutely. Will Al O. and company be given the leeway to do it? Time will tell.

I too believe that GM can make a new Z28 just as fast around the track for a much cheaper cost than the current Z28. How much I don't know maybe $60k? I'm thinking this 6gen will surprise a lot of people on the track with the Alpha chassis. Like you said time will tell. Exciting times ahead.

[BoostedX2]

And, in fact the original Z/28 302 WAS a high RPM Screamer...I owned one...

[PYROLYSIS]

Originally Posted by BoostedX2

And, in fact the original Z/28 302 WAS a high RPM Screamer...I owned one...

Betcha wish you still had it. I know I would.

[BoostedX2]

Originally Posted by PYROLYSIS

Betcha wish you still had it. I know I would.

My son has it!!!!