Best Yet: Comparison: Camaro Z/28 vs. 911 Turbo S vs. GT-R Track Edition

[doc7000]

People are sitting there and stating things like put these tires on that car and watch who is faster....

When cars are being setup they set them up using the tires that the car will be produced with, so changing tires can/will upset the factory stock balance of the car. So putting tires with more grip like lets say the 305s on the ZL1 Camaro wouldn't be the best move, sure it will go a bit faster however driving dynamics would deteriorate over what it currently is.

A great example of this would be the Scion FRS, I can't remember what publication did this but they took the car with its stock Toyota Prius tires and tried different performance tires. With the best tires the car was much faster around the track however had a good deal of body roll introduced to the car. At this point they would have to go to the after market for suspension components that were more in line with the better tires.

To summarize auto makers will either have a new tire developed along with their new vehicle or tune the car around an existing tire (as what they did with the Z/28).

[Front Runner]

Originally Posted by bionick

From what I have read the new ZR1 will even be better than the new Z06, since the ZR1 is the top corvette

Um........ what new ZR1?

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/01/14/c...not-happening/

[Col. Brain]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

There is no new ZR1.

So far

I could see GM giving the Corvette team the type of opening the Z/28 team had with the ZR1

build a world beater at the end of the C7's life no punches pulled etc


The Z06 will be one heck of a car. But it has a blower on it. The ZL1 guys have had issues with heat

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by nbrigdan

Haha I guess some people can't take criticism. I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out the obvious... I mean the cars (specifically the Porsche and Z/28) don't even come close to competing in the same segment so the test is pretty irrelevant, but it is funny to see how defensive people get when you point out an obvious flaw in the test.. As I said in my first statement, I love the Z/28 so I'm not knocking it at all, just pointing out some things from the other side of the table.

You're a Camaro Owner getting on a Mustang Owner for supporting a Camaro on a Camaro forum???

[47AJV8]

Originally Posted by doc7000

People are sitting there and stating things like put these tires on that car and watch who is faster....

When cars are being setup they set them up using the tires that the car will be produced with, so changing tires can/will upset the factory stock balance of the car. So putting tires with more grip like lets say the 305s on the ZL1 Camaro wouldn't be the best move, sure it will go a bit faster however driving dynamics would deteriorate over what it currently is.

A great example of this would be the Scion FRS, I can't remember what publication did this but they took the car with its stock Toyota Prius tires and tried different performance tires. With the best tires the car was much faster around the track however had a good deal of body roll introduced to the car. At this point they would have to go to the after market for suspension components that were more in line with the better tires.

To summarize auto makers will either have a new tire developed along with their new vehicle or tune the car around an existing tire (as what they did with the Z/28).

I have heard this argument many times, but I have many strong disagreements with it. You don't see anyone complaining about a lack of balance in a ZL1 after they changed to PSS, or on the C6 Grand Sport. Also, with either of those cars when more power is introduced they both respond well, it doesn't upset the balance, so the theory that the car is set up so precisely that a positive change in tire grip would have negative effect, to me at least, is hard to fathom. I have also read many reviews of the BRZ and the effect of aftermarket wheels/tires, and from what I read, the only downside (when sticking to factory sizes) was that you noticed the huge lack of power in the car because it actually had grip now.

Most, if not all manufacturers, mainly pick wheel/tire combos out of price, convenience, and target performance, that's the reason why PZero's are on so many cars, they practically give them away to manufacturers and they provide OK grip, etc.

Right, slap a set of the Z/28 tires on a ZL1 and watch the performance gap close, slap a set of Sport Cup 2s on a Turbo S and again watch it eat into the GT3s territory. Manufacturers are very careful about protecting their own sales, and so that's why all cars pretty much are restrained from the factory.

Now back to the Turbo S, when it's clear as day that the PZero is a significantly worse tire than the PSS, and the car isn't purposefully lacking grip like the FR-S, a better tire is going to make a noticeable, positive difference in everything from road feel to lap times. I mean look at our cars, the first thing I did was switch to a Michelin PSS and it was a night and day difference in feel and performance!

So I guess I respectfully, strongly disagree :P

[47AJV8]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

You're a Camaro Owner getting on a Mustang Owner for supporting a Camaro on a Camaro forum???

Ya I'm going to be critical of anyone if their argument is "wack" for lack of a better term. I don't care what side of the fence you are on, to me it's more important why you sit there. I mean ignoring a clear problem with the testing just to bump our own chests... The reason that the Z/28 is so fast is because they didn't faslely inflate their own abilities, actually knowing where your opponent stands and where they are going in the future is going to help you a lot more than downplaying their ability :P

[GRAHL]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

it's simply a GREAT TIME to be a Camaro Enthusiast.

One year ago we unveiled the car at NY - and we had so very many nay-sayers......

.........and then we announced the price and people had fits.......and we told you that you'd be blown away by the performance.

Well -- that day is here..........and the results are in magazines on the news stands.

For those of you who "kept the faith" -- many many many thanks from "Team Camaro" --

[davidcroft]

Originally Posted by jr2014ss

He called the Ss terrible car ....

As much as I hate to say it, I KNOW EXACTLY what he's talking about. FE3 suspended Camaros(10&11 SS cars) drive so much different than FE4 suspended Camaros(12+ SS cars). FE6 suspended cars (1LE) build off the FE4 cars and it's a NIGHT and DAY step for each level up. I had an FE4 (12 SS) and my neighbor had an FE3 car. The FE3 car felt sloppy and unpredictable in corners. Then I traded my 12 SS for a 13 1LE and I thought my 12 SS was junk.

The 5th Gen has undergone many changes in it's existence. The competition is fierce, but Chevy has beaten the American competition so bad....we're chasing foreign brands. The 5th Gen is truly a world class car

[Orange Crush 1LE]

Originally Posted by davidcroft

As much as I hate to say it, I KNOW EXACTLY what he's talking about. FE3 suspended Camaros(10&11 SS cars) drive so much different than FE4 suspended Camaros(12+ SS cars). FE6 suspended cars (1LE) build off the FE4 cars and it's a NIGHT and DAY step for each level up. I had an FE4 (12 SS) and my neighbor had an FE3 car. The FE3 car felt sloppy and unpredictable in corners. Then I traded my 12 SS for a 13 1LE and I thought my 12 SS was junk.

The 5th Gen has undergone many changes in it's existence. The competition is fierce, but Chevy has beaten the American competition so bad....we're chasing foreign brands. The 5th Gen is truly a world class car

Agree 100%, the SS initially was not very good on the track until they improved the suspension design. The good news is that those with FE3 suspension can upgrade to FE4 or better, and anyone that wants to track hard would benefit greatly from that upgrade.

[doc7000]

seeing all of the rage on the youtube channel is just funny, however a lot of that has to do with car mags parroting the same message. Pretty much because all of the car mags said that AWD and DCT was the way of the future and that no car without that can win.

Also the Nissan GTR when it first came out ended up being overly hyped, don't get me wrong the car has amazing performance and Nissan has done a good job improving the car. However the more recent reviews have pointed out issues that have been there from the very start one being that the car makes a lot of non cool car noises. Also the car seems to love to under steer....

Also with the cars performance I have come to the conclusion that its real performance comes down to two things. One being the DCT transmission that it uses and the other being a really stiff suspension tune from the factory. After all the AWD system doesn't seem to be that much more sophisticated then the R34 GTR cars so I doubt that its amazing performance is coming from its AWD system (though it certainly contributes).

[RallyellowRS]

Watching that gave me goose bumps.

[gen=5]

Well we are all beating our chests over a Camaro(and should be) that maybe 5% of the forum can either afford or will decide to get because it is such a track car,and not suited for DD..Although some complain over its cost,I say for the price its a winner !!!
So yes it cost so much less than Super cars it can beat on a road course,and yes it beat both of these car on this track,but we are talking by such a small amount,and with pro drivers...I would think that if it was joe AVG driving them,(not even a weekend racer) the Camaro may not come out ahead,as a all wheel drive car is much easier to drive than a rwd beast..
When it comes to all around,and doing everything the AWD track car is a much better over all car if you take into account DD,quarter mile times,track times,comfort,and build quality....
Did the Z28 do it without A/C ,and a radio ? The other cars come with those standard,and also have a higher comfort level as a DD car....
Although the Z28 is built as a track car,and when it comes to that and that alone for which it was built for,it is king !!! In this country,but outside its king buy only a small amount,but a win is win...So I say pick up your red white ,and blue and wave it high Chevy good job !!!!

[gen=5]

Originally Posted by Zslash28

Why on earth would someone want to drag race this car? There are two very obvious Camaros to choose as drag strip cars. Bury the idea of all of the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th gen Zs that have been put on the strip as a reason for this car to be there. Sure you had stand outs that were road raced, none reached the refinement and engineering in this 5th gen Z/28. You will always see more of the previous gens at the strip, your just will not see a dedicated 5Z/28 raced competitively on the strip.

Sorry you can not say for sure,that someone is not going to be drag racing a Z28 on the strip....How can you speak for all of the owners...
There is already ,a turbo kit for it,and a S/C kit for it, there is already a ton of NA up grades for the motor....most V-8 Camaro owners sooner or later go to the strip, There will be tuner shops that decide to add a extra 200 hp,and show what it can do at the strip,as that's how 85% of all of them show off their work....
I am willing to bet someone will show up with 800hp-1000hp under the hood sooner or later...
When the Zl1 first came, Did you also think that no one would ever think to remove the top half of the LSA in it,and add TT...I bet not...I would of not thought so. Its impossible to say that no one is going to build up,a Z28 and take it to the strip...AFTER ALL its a camaro and most like to show off how fast it is...

[doc7000]

Originally Posted by gen=5

Well we are all beating our chests over a Camaro(and should be) that maybe 5% of the forum can either afford or will decide to get because it is such a track car,and not suited for DD..Although some complain over its cost,I say for the price its a winner !!!
So yes it cost so much less than Super cars it can beat on a road course,and yes it beat both of these car on this track,but we are talking by such a small amount,and with pro drivers...I would think that if it was joe AVG driving them,(not even a weekend racer) the Camaro may not come out ahead,as a all wheel drive car is much easier to drive than a rwd beast..
When it comes to all around,and doing everything the AWD track car is a much better over all car if you take into account DD,quarter mile times,track times,comfort,and build quality....
Did the Z28 do it without A/C ,and a radio ? The other cars come with those standard,and also have a higher comfort level as a DD car....
Although the Z28 is built as a track car,and when it comes to that and that alone for which it was built for,it is king !!! In this country,but outside its king buy only a small amount,but a win is win...So I say pick up your red white ,and blue and wave it high Chevy good job !!!!

Actually from many later reviews they complain about refinement issues with the Nissan GTR and state that they have always been there. So I am not completely sure I would agree with you on quality issues however the Porsche and Nissan GTR are going to be better daily drivers....

Here is my counter point, at one point in time people purchased sports cars to be just that sports cars. Now it seems like almost no one really makes a sports car and instead of varying degree of a GT car with different levels of luxury. Does a sports car really have to be a great car to drive every day? nothing wrong with a sports car that is a great car to drive every day. However one must consider that you do not get something for nothing, in many cases the cars end up costing more and being more complex (as well as heavier). Though if going by what automakers currently build no one really wants a pure sports car anymore. Or is this a case of automakers not making pure sports cars and as a result no one can buy one (because there is a lack of them on the market).

Its the old Corvette vs Thunderbird, while the Thunderbird gained a back seat and got bigger and bigger (with sale increasing) the Corvette didn't. Does making the Porsche 911 more of a GT car mean that they will sell more cars to those who want more luxury?. Does that increase in sales really merit a change in the mission statement of a mark vs creating a new mark to fill the niche?. Should GM considering making a 4 door/4 seat luxury GT Corvette (ala Aston Martin Rapide) or should they leave that niche to be filled by a Cadillac?.

Then it comes back to where should GM take the sixth generation and to get there you first have to start at the 5th generation car. The biggest issue with the 5th generation Camaro is weight and this comes from a choice made by Holden when developing the chassis. As a selling point to the public they wanted their Commodore and Caprice to be safer then Big Mercedes on market there. This is the big problem with platform sharing as different companies put different demands on the chassis which are not completely compatible. As a result of this GM was developing the Camaro on the Zeta platform with a performance handicap.

The alpha platform seems to have been produced with a greater emphasis on light weight and improving performance. Even with the base 2.5L ATS sedan coming in at 3,315 pounds GM acknowledge that they could have cut weight further however wouldn't have been acceptable for an entry level performance luxury sedan. With that taken in mind and with the next Camaro stated to use the ATS sedan wheel base could we see a heavier V-6 engine weight countered by less refinement being acceptable for the Camaro?. Will the base weight of the ATS V-6 of 3,461 pounds be a good indicator as to how much the next Camaro will come in at?.