[Rustydaytons]

The Challenger is significantly more roomy. I test drove both before I bought. I went with Chevy because I can't drive a DODGE

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by jingaling

What is muscle? And how much muscle does it need to be muscle?

Muscle is low down/ grunt and torque with HP to match.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by Rustydaytons

Hit or miss. The Impala SS is a trim package had nothing to do with drive train. There are Impala SS with inline 6 and there are wagons that have 409 ..so go figure. Also. Impalas don't exist after 64 �� although 67s are nice cars...I don't see how a 283 with 4 wheel drum brakes can be called muscle......

Yes some of the very early SSs had 6cycl. But that did not last long. SS first began as a Trim package but quickly turned strictly into a performance package.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Rustydaytons

The Challenger is significantly more roomy. I test drove both before I bought. I went with Chevy because I can't drive a DODGE

Agreed. But it is not a direct competitor to either the Charger or Chevy's SS. It's still a Camaro/Mustang category of car even though its performance mix is more about the straight-line and less about cornering than either of those two.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by gringo

It's within the manufacturer's best interest to have these third party organizations call these cars, sports cars. It increases the market penetration of the platforms across the segment.

SUV's have been traditionally, since the '90's, BOF truck based vehicles. Crossovers, the hot new segment of today, are typically unibody car based platforms made to look like high clearance 4 door wagon/hatchback hybrid looking vehicles.

The Challenger and Charger may be classified as large cars, but they do represent what traditionally has been what a muscle car was in the past. Since that term has been tossed around here many times towards the Camaro, those would be the two vehicles that would most closely fit that definition, particularly the Challenger.

GM has been guilty like the others of throwing around nameplates to increase market sales. They have applied the legendary "SS" nameplate on everything from 4 door sedans to FWD sporty coupes to even fullsized extended cab trucks. All in the search of more profit for the brand.

The part in bold is the heart of the intense debates in GM Planning and Product Development circles. The delineation used to be very clear. BOF is SUV, BFI is crossover. Thing is, BOF vehicles, with the possible exception of pickup trucks, are going the way of the dinosaur. What is the Ford Explorer? I'd say it is an SUV. But it is body frame integral, not body-on-frame. For that matter, what is the Jeep Grand Cherokee? It is also body frame integral, but is also rear wheel drive. What are most of the Land Rover line-up? They have both RWD and FWD BFI models. The thing is, that evolution thing coming into play again. BFI architectures are a lot more capable than they used to be and are now approaching the hauling / towing capability of heavier, less fuel efficient BOF architectures. So do you classify the vehicle based on the parts underneath that most customers can't see or touch, or by it's capabilities and design intent?

GM used to be guilty of the SS peanut butter approach, but killed that off early in the 2000's. The Malibu SS was the last vehicle that unfortunately had the SS badge slapped on it with zero merit other than fat tires. Since then, only the SS Sedan (folded over from the Pontiac GTO when Pontiac died) and Camaro received the SS. There has never been a Cruze SS, for example. And I'm sure the subject of the Cobalt SS will come up. I would argue that for its time it was worthy of an SS badge. It had a 2.0 turbo dishing out 250 hp and was very competitive in the pocket-rocket class of vehicles.

[R.C. Collins]

Sports car.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Your posts make the most sense. Especially the qoute in red.

The capabilities of the Camaro have radically changed since 1967 and your examples of four seat sports cars nails it.

Thanks. This is pretty much part of what I did the last 10 of my 38 years at GM. The people who defined GM vehicle segments reported to the same boss I reported to, so I interacted with them quite often. I was responsible for Competitor Intelligence for all powertrain technologies, electric vehicles and hybrids. I also was responsible for purchasing and analyzing databases from IHS Markit and Automotive News, and worked with the guys that bought the Wards Automotive, R.L. Polk and J.D. Power data.

I did a lot of competitor intel for the Camaro team and the Corvette team. Both consider their products sports cars. Both are very clear on their competition. The Camaro team does not consider the Challenger a sports car. They recognize that it is a very powerful very fast, lower cost option for people who consider a Camaro, but they don't spend a lot of time "benchmarking" it. The small block engine team does, however, spend a good amount of time benchmarking Hemi, and I guarantee the Hemi guys have torn down more than a few small blocks.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by R.C. Collins

Sports car.

Nice segue.

[R.C. Collins]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Nice segue.

I had a long-winded response, and then i edited it down. Sometimes it's better to keep it simple!

[Hops]

it's all up to your definition of the term. But i think it rather sporting of GM to openly warranty tracked 1le and ss camaros! That's a reason why i'm looking at them for my next car.

[JoeCamaro444]

Originally Posted by R.C. Collins

I had a long-winded response, and then i edited it down. Sometimes it's better to keep it simple!

I second, Sports Car. 👍🏻

[gringo]

Sorry, it's not a sports car. The Corvette IS a sports car. To say the Camaro is a sports car is to say it's the same as a Corvette and it is clearly not. Different cars for different markets.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by gringo

Sorry, it's not a sports car. The Corvette IS a sports car. To say the Camaro is a sports car is to say it's the same as a Corvette and it is clearly not. Different cars for different markets.

You're right....all the paid professionals that categorize vehicles for a living are wrong. The Camaro Product Development Team is delusional, and Chevrolet Marketing is just flat out lying. I'm good with that.

If the Porsche Cayman and Porsche 911 can both be sports cars and are clearly not the same, it is entirely possible for Camaro and Corvette to both be sports cars and not the same. And according to the people who design, engineer, and manufacture Camaro and Corvette, both are sports cars.

[Martinjlm]

I guess Ford Marketing is also lying or delusional. Here's part of their press release for the 2018 Mustang.....

LOS ANGELES, Calif., Jan. 17, 2017 – Today, Ford partnered with its ambassador of Service, Dwayne ‘The Rock’ Johnson, to introduce the new Mustang – the world’s best-selling sports coupe and the company’s most advanced Mustang ever.

A host of improvements including new technology and design changes give owners ways to customize Mustang to their preferences, even better performance from more powerful engines and new MagneRide™ suspension technology. Customers have more ways than ever to personalize Mustang to make it their own, with three new paint colors, 12 distinct wheel choices and a customizable digital instrument cluster.

“The new Mustang is our best ever, based on more than 50 years as one of the iconic sports car in America and now, the world,” said Joe Hinrichs, president of The Americas. “Tapping Mustang’s enormous fan base, we’re bringing the new Mustang straight to the people – and introducing the new car across multiple social media channels, reaching millions.”

Ford tapped Johnson to reveal the new Mustang to the world by giving one of the first models available to a deserving member of the military. A video of the debut was launched on Johnson’s social channels, including Youtube, Instagram and Facebook, where Mustang holds the title for the most-popular car with more than 8.4 million ‘likes.’