[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

HP/L matters when everybody is limited to running the same displacement (or when displacements are factored based on valvetrain type or the presence of some power adder).

Just because most drag racing and street competitions don't have displacement limits does not invalidate the HP/L matter generally. I bet that HP/cubic inch matters to the top fuel/funny car/pro stock guys . . .


Norm

Well, yeah, if you are stuck within certain racing regulations, hp/l means something but then the engines will be more or less identical. Comparing hp/l between a DOHC engine, like the Voodoo, and a push rod engine, like the LS7, is meaningless because the DOHC engine should make more hp/l as a function of its design.

[Mikey LikesIt]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Voodoo's posts are always fun to read. He's still arguing hp/l. I thought people realized that was a meaningless number after the age of 17.

Yeah, the LS7 needs 1.8 more liters but the 5.2 Voodoo needs twice the valves, four times the cams and 2000 more rpm to beat a 10 year old engine.

Voodoo hates Camaros so much, you'd think a relative of his got run over by one or something.

[Mikey LikesIt]

Originally Posted by hotlap

All good points regarding forced induction. I'd restate the original as four cams and high revs are not a replacement for displacement. Torque and power across the power band is the reward for displacement.

Arguing HP/liter is asinine. It's not noble to build a engine with double the moving parts to spin it faster to move a ~similar~ volume of air/fuel.

It blows my mind how the guys with smaller displacement engines are obsessed with hp/liter. Especially when those engines take up more space, weigh more, and often have less hp while getting worse fuel economy. All engines make trade-offs. You won't see me crying that someone needs 4 camshaft do and high revs to make their power. Run what ya brung and stfu.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Well, yeah, if you are stuck within certain racing regulations, hp/l means something but then the engines will be more or less identical. Comparing hp/l between a DOHC engine, like the Voodoo, and a push rod engine, like the LS7, is meaningless because the DOHC engine should make more hp/l as a function of its design.

Precisely why I mentioned 'factoring'. This could take the form of pushrod engines being permitted greater displacement than dohc motors running at the same weight, or running at less weight with the same displacement. Same goes for forced induction - I know that some organizations have factored turbocharged engine displacements up by 1.4.

The point is to put engine power vs car weight on more or less even footing and place more emphasis on driver ability and the rest of vehicle setup. Pretty much opposite to drag racing's "just get a bigger hammer" approach.


Norm

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Precisely why I mentioned 'factoring'. This could take the form of pushrod engines being permitted greater displacement than dohc motors running at the same weight, or running at less weight with the same displacement. Same goes for forced induction - I know that some organizations have factored turbocharged engine displacements up by 1.4.

The point is to put engine power vs car weight on more or less even footing and place more emphasis on driver ability and the rest of vehicle setup. Pretty much opposite to drag racing's "just get a bigger hammer" approach.


Norm

Even many professional drag racing sanctioning bodies have similar rules like limited FI displacement vs NA or N2O. Then it becomes a question of track conditions in a lot of cases favoring one type of setup over the other.

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[oldman]

Originally Posted by Mikey LikesIt

It blows my mind how the guys with smaller displacement engines are obsessed with hp/liter. Especially when those engines take up more space, weigh more, and often have less hp while getting worse fuel economy. All engines make trade-offs. You won't see me crying that someone needs 4 camshaft do and high revs to make their power. Run what ya brung and stfu.

amen, this is from the LS1 days vs Cobra... HP per liter is a meaningless number and if you want to know my Type R puts out 275 HP at 9200 RPM from 2.1 liters, NA. Does that mean it will beat my SS, it does eat stock R/Ts... gets 30 MPG overall.

The Voodoo, is handbuilt, expensive, hard to work on, has poor fuel economy and judging by how filled the Mustang's engine compartment is, it is bigger than a 460 Ford BB. I still like the engine, but please, HP / Liter. That is like saying my GF was good looking before she gained 80 lbs.

To me if you have deep pockets the 350 is a nice setup and can build from there. If you got kids in college like me, the SS is one great ride at bang for the dollar and it is great stock and can also be built. The 350 just has a whole lot higher entry fee and incremental cost.

[bpang1234]

If the Mustang GT was on the same level of performance as the current SS, I'd have been hard-pressed to make a decision. Thankfully, Chevy made it really easy with the home-run they hit with the SS.

I still like the Mustang but the Camaro is just in another league right now. Mustang is a good muscle car...Camaro is now a sports car.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Even many professional drag racing sanctioning bodies have similar rules like limited FI displacement vs NA or N2O. Then it becomes a question of track conditions in a lot of cases favoring one type of setup over the other.

Understood (and I did address exactly this before).

I suppose I should have specifically excluded the professional level guys just to keep it clear that the bigger hammer approach has always been the amateur drag racer's and the street racer's "go-to" solution. IOW, where drag racing's roots are, not necessarily where its top levels have ultimately gone.


Norm

[Mike502]

Around town I spend about 80% of my time in the 2000 to 3500 rpm range. If I owned a voodoo it would feel like a 4 banger. The lack of grunt under 4000 rpm must really make the 350 feel slow as hell as a daily driver in city driving. I've got to drive a used one to see for myself. When ford first went to the overhead cam engine it suffered from lack of grunt down low. It took them many years to solve that issue. VCT was the solution and supercharger was a cheap way to get HP.
The power band of the voodoo makes it a good track car and a boring daily driver. In other words a one trick pony.

[TheSpectre]

Originally Posted by Mike502

The power band of the voodoo makes it a good track car and a boring daily driver. In other words a one trick pony.

Don't be so sure of that. There are many ways to work around the fact the Voodoo has to be wound up to extract power, the easiest of which is....just wind it out and stay in a lower gear when puttering around town.

It's like how the general public complains about the poor outwards visibility from inside the Camaro, but everyone who owns one swears up and down that with proper placement of the side mirrors and a little practice, it's no big deal.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by TheSpectre

Don't be so sure of that. There are many ways to work around the fact the Voodoo has to be wound up to extract power, the easiest of which is....just wind it out and stay in a lower gear when puttering around town.

It's like how the general public complains about the poor outwards visibility from inside the Camaro, but everyone who owns one swears up and down that with proper placement of the side mirrors and a little practice, it's no big deal.

I've seen people do Ferraris the same way due to lack of low end power. Sounds good but you are just dumping gas so to speak. Probably not a concern for most but exactly why neither are what you call a good daily driver. Doesn't mean people won't.

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[Norm Peterson]

I think everybody who buys a GT350 will eventually find a range of rpms to keep most driving in that provides satisfactory response for them. Sure, that'll likely be a little higher than the rev range that you'd be comfortable driving a 6.2L Camaro in, but finding what that happy rev range is and learning what it takes to stay in it is just part of driving any stick-shift car.


Norm

[Mikey LikesIt]

My conclusion is that most of us are insane. Just some more so than others.

But can't we all just get along and respect each other and the cars that other people select? I thought about engaging with certain people here and on mustang6, but I concluded that I just don't have the energy...and nothing would be solved if I question why someone else acts so radically and divisive.

Yea, each car will have different qualities which is great because everyone has their own preferences.

Bottom line, I'm happy as heck with my car and so there is no need for me to bash Mustangs or their drivers.

[crysalis_01]

I still fail to understand how some feel the GT350 is a "no one's home" situation below a certain rpm. It's torque output is very similar to the gen1 Coyotes to a point, after which it runs away from the old Coyote, and I've never heard similar complaints for those cars.

Here's a short list for comparing of an rpm range from 1500 to 3500, a very "around town" sort of range.


Voodoo@1500rpm = 238tq
.............@2000rpm~ 260tq
.............@2500rpm~ 265tq
.............@3000rpm~ 290tq
.............@3500rpm~ 345tq

For comparison:
New Edge GT 1500rpm~ 210tq
........................2000rpm~ 220tq
........................2500rpm~ 225tq
........................3000rpm~ 225tq
........................3500rpm~ 245tq

S197 GT('10) 1500rpm~?
......................2000rpm~ 240tq
......................2500rpm~ 260tq
......................3000rpm~ 265tq
......................3500rpm~ 275tq

Gen1 Coyote@ 1500rpm~ ?
....................@ 2000rpm~ 270tq
....................@ 2500rpm~ 280tq
....................@ 3000rpm~ 295tq
....................@ 3500rpm~ 330tq

Gen2 Coyote@ 1500rpm~ ?
....................@ 2000rpm~ 275tq
....................@ 2500rpm~ 295tq
....................@ 3000rpm~ 315tq
....................@ 3500rpm~ 345tq