[alcal1084]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

There are a ton of 3rd party companies that are building charge points across the country.

Is the charge time equal or better then tesla’s?

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by alcal1084

I have a question I hope one of you guys can answer because it sounds like you’re the experts... from what I understand is almost every auto manufacturers have said they plan on having a fully electric fleet by some time in the next 10 years or so. With that said how will I charge my fully electric Chevrolet on a road trip? Right now tesla has invested tons of money on their supercharger network and it’s going to continue to grow over time. Do other auto manufacturers have an answer for this?

I wouldn't be worried about this so much. I do see charging stations popping up all over the place, it appears the way that this will go down is that charging stations will exist in almost any space where you can park a car, it'll take a while to filter all the way down, but the gas stations are going to have to adapt, which is good, because they will be able to sell something that other's can not, quick-charging for vehicles doing what you are discussing (cross-country). Battery technology that is in development right now will offer many times the energy density of what is available currently, and is expected to be fielded in 10-15 years or so. It might be possible that the need to recharge as often may also be reduced. Even if this happens, gas stations will still have to service commercial ICE traffic and other ICE engines, but for a while will have an additional product they can sell to the EVs, while everything transitions to electric, which will inevitably take a lot longer than 10 years, more like 20-30.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I wouldn't be worried about this so much. I do see charging stations popping up all over the place, it appears the way that this will go down is that charging stations will exist in almost any space where you can park a car, it'll take a while to filter all the way down, but the gas stations are going to have to adapt, which is good, because they will be able to sell something that other's can not, quick-charging for vehicles doing what you are discussing (cross-country). Battery technology that is in development right now will offer many times the energy density of what is available currently, and is expected to be fielded in 10-15 years or so. It might be possible that the need to recharge as often may also be reduced. Even if this happens, gas stations will still have to service commercial ICE traffic and other ICE engines, but for a while will have an additional product they can sell to the EVs, while everything transitions to electric, which will inevitably take a lot longer than 10 years, more like 20-30.

So where is all the electricity coming from to power even just the cars and trucks in the USA? The electrical grid is about at its breaking point now. It's old in most places and way undersized already. My brother-in-law is in that business, and he tells me that he doesnt see things getting better. What's going to happen is the EV guys will pay off Washington. They will green light the power companies to build up the grid and allow them to do whatever it takes to get millions and milions of chargers powered. That will mean skyrocketing power bills for everyone to pay for it all. It will also mean more nuke plants to fail and give people cancer for the next 40 years after the failure, and the big kicker, oh yes, burning more fossil fuels to power these EVs. Energy isnt free boys.
I agree that we are depleteing our resources, but I also dont see EVs as the answer. They lie with every cellphone they sell us. Every time a new one comes out they tells us about the battery being better. With owning a serviced based business I buy a lot of phones. I cant say Ive seen a noticeable impovement in battery life or reliability. They tell us the batteries will last longer and things seem great for about a year, then it hits. Battery illness.
You want that with your car too?

I could talk about this all day, but I need to get into my DURAMAX or maybe just my 6.2L gas Superduty and go make money to prepare for Elon and the government to take more.
Can't wait for him to be handed the space program too. That will create entire other set of issues.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by motorhead

So where is all the electricity coming from to power even just the cars and trucks in the USA? The electrical grid is about at its breaking point now.

lol...it's constantly being upgraded and improved as we move forward. People are using EVs from "the grid" as we speak. It works for the current use, it will be upgraded as use continues. There will be business opportunities and work generated along the way. You are terrified by something new that you don't fully understand. Electricity is more efficient to beam to your house than trucking oil all over the globe with various vehicles to sit in tanks at gas-stations that themselves required oil to produce. The great thing about EVs is they don't care what the source is, geothermal, solar, hydroeletric, tidal, wind, fusion, fission, coal, gas-turbine, etc...Not only that, but gas-turbine has exceeded 50% carnot efficiency a number of years ago, a barrier once thought impossible, up around 65% now. Add to that how scale-able the installations are and how little infrastructure they require, it's no wonder they are becoming the power-generation method of choice for many cities/urban areas. Not sure if you are aware, but Nuke plants are horribly inefficient. It "seems" like "free energy!" on paper, but all the building, security, storage, and massive infrastructure does not come out "on top" as far as efficiency and cost, this is one big reason why it's fallen out of favor, it's just too expensive to keep running. That doesn't mean don't invest in research, but practically, it's not the sure-shot that it was once believed to be.

I've seen huge increases in battery life from what was in production 20 years ago, I run LED lights on Li Ion batteries at night for hours on end. Phones that last all day using various features, etc. Of course, we always seem to find new ways to drain them, but that doesn't mean the capacity is going up. Tiny little batteries the size of your fist turning over massive lycoming IO-540 engines.

I believe you are terrified of the future because it will be different. People felt the same way about the horseless carriage.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Not sure if you are aware, but Nuke plants are horribly inefficient. It "seems" like "free energy!" on paper, but all the building, security, storage, and massive infrastructure does not come out "on top" as far as efficiency and cost, this is one big reason why it's fallen out of favor, it's just too expensive to keep running. That doesn't mean don't invest in research, but practically, it's not the sure-shot that it was once believed to be.

If we didn't ban fuel reprocessing, its value would skyrocket...sadly...we'd rather bury everything...

[h422694]

Originally Posted by motorhead

They lie with every cellphone they sell us. Every time a new one comes out they tells us about the battery being better. I cant say Ive seen a noticeable impovement in battery life or reliability. They tell us the batteries will last longer and things seem great for about a year, then it hits.

I think your comments about phone batteries and issues are out of line and inaccurate. To begin with, the physical characteristics are significantly different. 10 yrs ago we still had flip phones with a black & white screen about 1.5 inches square and maybe a 100K pixels. Today they are over 6" long and 2" wide and exceed 10 million pixels. Processor was a single slow one years ago, today as many as 8 that are very fast. They have multiple crisp cameras, run major applications, have speech & sound recognition, and are superfast compared with years ago. They are computers significantly more powerful than most home computers years ago. . Battery improvements have also continued. Most batteries begin to lose some capabilities after a certain number of charges, typically between 400-500 but that continues to improve with technology advances. Battery use duration has continued to improve also. It is generally rated in hours of talk time and improves with each new generation of phones.
I'm guessing people had the same concerns about oil when autos were 1st introduced but most soon weaned themselves from using animals for transportation and didn't regret the change. Time change and so do most folks.

[Mr. Wyndham]

The last big battery bump we've had was the change from NiMH to Li-Ion...since then, changes and improvements have been incremental to keep up with increased processing demands in devices like phones and computers, but nothing so dramatic as that chemical transition.

Currently, the single biggest impact on battery life is available, physical space...the more cells you can pack into an area, the longer charge you will have. The difference in technology today vs 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago is staggering. I am hopeful that the next big jump in battery technology is around the corner. Li-Ion is not the final solution...but I don't know what is.

This is an image I love to show people (particularly my high school Tech classes) to demonstrate the strides battery tech has made. On the right, is the battery pack out of an EV1, circa 1997. 16kWh, Lead-Acid composition, total vehicle range about 120 miles (on a good day). To the left is the battery pack out of an Volt, circa 2011. 17.1 kWh, Li-Ion composition, total electric range of about 50 miles, however, they never ran the battery down past 50% charge for longevity purposes. So...approximately the same charge capacity...but less than half the size, and ⅓ the weight.



And this is what GM's "battery family" looks like today...from left to right is a first-gen Volt, second-gen Volt, Spark EV, and Bolt.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by motorhead

So where is all the electricity coming from to power even just the cars and trucks in the USA? The electrical grid is about at its breaking point now. It's old in most places and way undersized already. My brother-in-law is in that business, and he tells me that he doesnt see things getting better. What's going to happen is the EV guys will pay off Washington. They will green light the power companies to build up the grid and allow them to do whatever it takes to get millions and milions of chargers powered. That will mean skyrocketing power bills for everyone to pay for it all. It will also mean more nuke plants to fail and give people cancer for the next 40 years after the failure, and the big kicker, oh yes, burning more fossil fuels to power these EVs. Energy isnt free boys.
I agree that we are depleteing our resources, but I also dont see EVs as the answer. They lie with every cellphone they sell us. Every time a new one comes out they tells us about the battery being better. With owning a serviced based business I buy a lot of phones. I cant say Ive seen a noticeable impovement in battery life or reliability. They tell us the batteries will last longer and things seem great for about a year, then it hits. Battery illness.
You want that with your car too?

I could talk about this all day, but I need to get into my DURAMAX or maybe just my 6.2L gas Superduty and go make money to prepare for Elon and the government to take more.
Can't wait for him to be handed the space program too. That will create entire other set of issues.

Elon is all over Solar Energy & Home Battery Storage Pacs!

https://archpaper.com/2017/10/elon-m...lery-0-slide-0

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

lol...it's constantly being upgraded and improved as we move forward. People are using EVs from "the grid" as we speak. It works for the current use, it will be upgraded as use continues. There will be business opportunities and work generated along the way. You are terrified by something new that you don't fully understand. Electricity is more efficient to beam to your house than trucking oil all over the globe with various vehicles to sit in tanks at gas-stations that themselves required oil to produce. The great thing about EVs is they don't care what the source is, geothermal, solar, hydroeletric, tidal, wind, fusion, fission, coal, gas-turbine, etc...Not only that, but gas-turbine has exceeded 50% carnot efficiency a number of years ago, a barrier once thought impossible, up around 65% now. Add to that how scale-able the installations are and how little infrastructure they require, it's no wonder they are becoming the power-generation method of choice for many cities/urban areas. Not sure if you are aware, but Nuke plants are horribly inefficient. It "seems" like "free energy!" on paper, but all the building, security, storage, and massive infrastructure does not come out "on top" as far as efficiency and cost, this is one big reason why it's fallen out of favor, it's just too expensive to keep running. That doesn't mean don't invest in research, but practically, it's not the sure-shot that it was once believed to be.

I've seen huge increases in battery life from what was in production 20 years ago, I run LED lights on Li Ion batteries at night for hours on end. Phones that last all day using various features, etc. Of course, we always seem to find new ways to drain them, but that doesn't mean the capacity is going up. Tiny little batteries the size of your fist turning over massive lycoming IO-540 engines.

I believe you are terrified of the future because it will be different. People felt the same way about the horseless carriage.

Im not terrified of anything. The technology doesnt bother me except for it isn't as "green" as you guys are claiming. And there will be consequences to producing billions of pounds of toxic waste in these batteries when they are done. I'm open to listening to guys like you, but the problem is guys like you are too quick to right guys like me off as being afriad or wearing a tinfoil hat when we bring up issues with this technology and the people searching for the control of the economy. I understand stand more of it than you know. Just because I dont agree with what your selling doesnt mean I dont understand it. Ill try to be here in 20 years so you can say "I told you so". I hope you and guys like you are right, but people have become very selfish these days and more power hungry than ever before.
I have very little faith that anyone is trying to help the greater good anymore over just thinking about themselves. Just the simple fact that nothing is built to last anymore shows me that. We pay three times more for crap that you throw out in two years and then buy another one. My guys changed out a furnace yesterday that was 47 years old operating in a commercial environment. It still ran. The issue was the blower bearings were shot and replacements where not available. The new furnace we put in is good by today's standards, but it wont be there in 47 years. It will be lucky to make it half of that.
I know this thread went south with my comment about Elon putting his trash into space, but it has been quit informative and interesting. I do appreciate all your comments and replies to my views of this. I'll ponder on them today while I have my guys out keeping people warm, their water hot, their food cold and their ability to process and cook it working. There are a lot of fossil fuels involved with all of those processes. Are they all going to change to electricity or run off batteries too? Wow! That's alot of power usage. Lol
Dont you just love the idea of having all your eggs in one basket? I dont. That is a recipe for failure every time.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

Elon is all over Solar Energy & Home Battery Storage Pacs!

https://archpaper.com/2017/10/elon-m...lery-0-slide-0

Im awhere if what Elon is into. I have google too. Lol

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Currently, the single biggest impact on battery life is available, physical space...the more cells you can pack into an area, the longer charge you will have. The difference in technology today vs 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago is staggering. I am hopeful that the next big jump in battery technology is around the corner. Li-Ion is not the final solution...but I don't know what is.

Solid state battery tech.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I'll ponder on them today while I have my guys out keeping people warm, their water hot, their food cold and their ability to process and cook it working. There are a lot of fossil fuels involved with all of those processes. Are they all going to change to electricity or run off batteries too? Wow! That's alot of power usage. Lol
Dont you just love the idea of having all your eggs in one basket? I dont. That is a recipe for failure every time.

Some of it will, it will take a long time for all of it to, that's where we see the more gradual transition over many years, maybe longer than any of our lifetimes. I think many countries, and even ours, have made great progress in diversifying sources of energy and harnessing some of the things that are "there to harness", like solar, tidal, geothermal, hydroelectric, wind, and so on. These don't work everywhere or in some cases all the time, but they are sources of energy and they work. Then there are fossil fuels, that can be burned relatively efficiently when the combustion is tightly controlled, such as a modern gas-turbine power generator. It practically makes a lot more sense to change over to a grid that can support charging vehicles at every home and place of business, because you will save having to truck so much petroleum to the ends of the earth and you can directly harness these sources of energy. Less reliance on petroleum is more for reserves, the military, outlying communities that can't easily generate electricity, etc. Compared to competing technologies in cars like natural gas, or hydrogen (including cells), ultra-clean ICE, electric is the one that doesn't care where the energy actually comes from. That flexibility IMO is the real winner, along with the efficiency. It's kind of the opposite of "all of your eggs in one basket", if at some point there's a nuclear break-through, well, perfect. If we use scalable gas-turbines, that works too. Somehow we can figure how to replace the entire damn cell-phone network every few years and now they work better than any wall-unit ever did, so I'm sure we will overcome.

As far as using electric for everything, some houses do, some houses use gas, doesn't seem to be an issue. I lived in a rural area growing up where the power would sometimes go out, and we would use the wood stove. I don't think any of those things are changing. Most of us would be just as screwed if the gas was turned off for some reason.

I think I'm going to pick up an electric chainsaw for clearing trails this year, is it a replacement for gas for sawing through cords and cords of wood? Not yet, but the technology of electric motors and batteries has advanced far enough to make this practical for purposes that would have required a gas one a few years ago, and that's the slow march towards electric.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Solid state battery tech.

Thanks. I think I had read something about that a few years ago...if memory serves, this excerpt about sums up what I remember about it:

"Solid-state batteries are...expensive to make, and is noted to be immune to economies of scale. It is estimated in 2012 that based on then-current technology, a 20Ah solid-state battery cell would cost US$100,000, and a high-range electric car would require 800 to 1,000 of such cells..."

Seems like we might be waiting a few more years until solid-state batteries comes out with any success. Even with the massive development companies are pouring into it...EVs with Lithium Ion batteries are expensive compared to a similar-sized ICE car, as it is.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Thanks. I think I had read something about that a few years ago...if memory serves, this excerpt about sums up what I remember about it:

"Solid-state batteries are...expensive to make, and is noted to be immune to economies of scale. It is estimated in 2012 that based on then-current technology, a 20Ah solid-state battery cell would cost US$100,000, and a high-range electric car would require 800 to 1,000 of such cells..."

Seems like we might be waiting a few more years until solid-state batteries comes out with any success. Even with the massive development companies are pouring into it...EVs with Lithium Ion batteries are expensive compared to a similar-sized ICE car, as it is.

Supposedly the technology to mass produce them and get to the economy of scale (from scientists in the industry I've talked to) is around 10-15 years out at best, but it is coming. You look at the initial cost for anything and it's up there, it can take millions to develop one vehicle, when you start looking at one-off stuff for races and other similar applications, the cost is astronomical. Just the fact that carbon-ceramic brakes are even accessible to the public now on cars like the ZL-1 is good proof of that, compared to 15 years back.