[ULTRAZLS1]

Damn that's a lot of work for a car that was simply a tune and a tire change away from an SS.

This thing should run 11.50s easy bone stock on stock tires. It will have new tune, direct injection. different tranny.full point more compression. likely different intake manifold. different valves. probably different cams. revving to 7400 rpm.

Didn't ford get the memo that they could have just changed the tune?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Damn that's a lot of work for a car that was simply a tune and a tire change away from an SS.

This thing should run 11.50s easy bone stock on stock tires. It will have new tune, direct injection. different tranny.full point more compression. likely different intake manifold. different valves. probably different cams. revving to 7400 rpm.

Didn't ford get the memo that they could have just changed the tune?

[Steve2150]

Well looked liked Ford addressed the carbon on the intake valves by using both port and direct injection that plagues all direct injection motors including our LT1, wonder is Chevy does that next. That said rather have my 2SS then a Mustang.

[1LE801]

Performance will be great with the added changes. Styling may not grow on me but oh well. I'm interested to drive one. Go USA!!

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

The msrp on the existing PP with premium and Recaros is already $42,865.

Oh, wow I had no idea it was that much already...it will most likely go up a few grand then. I mean, if it's the same price as an SS 1LE, unless you are a die hard Ford guy, it would make no sense to by the GT PP2 if you are really going to track the car...as the SS 1LE will have more content, and perform better. Ford may need to try to hold the price of the PP2 package to the same as the old PP1 just to undercut the SS 1LE MSRP...

[khell86]

I don't think ford would be willing to match the 1LE pricing in any way. I'm about 90% sure Chevy is taking a hit for each 1LE they sell. They're simply doing it for bragging rights kind of thing. I'm pretty sure ford wouldn't do something like that.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by khell86

I'm about 90% sure Chevy is taking a hit for each 1LE they sell.

Doubtful...they just saved R&D costs on the expensive stuff as things like the eLSD came from the Corvette first, and other items will be used on the ZL1 too, so costs can be spread out better then Ford can.

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

Oh, wow I had no idea it was that much already...it will most likely go up a few grand then. I mean, if it's the same price as an SS 1LE, unless you are a die hard Ford guy, it would make no sense to by the GT PP2 if you are really going to track the car...as the SS 1LE will have more content, and perform better. Ford may need to try to hold the price of the PP2 package to the same as the old PP1 just to undercut the SS 1LE MSRP...

Really, it's going to depend on how well the GT PP2 tracks. Can it sustain multiple laps without overheating the diff or transmission? If performance is close to the 1le, and price is close to the 1le....then Ford would have likely met its goal. This is a refresh after all. This would allow anyone that isn't keen on the camaros visibility issues, styling ques or lack of cabin/trunk room another option.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Trust me, I'm quite familiar with moment of inertia. I fully understand the impact of reducing rotational and unsprung mass. The full benefit of forged and composite wheels is the reduced mass in the rim (I was a wheel designer in a previous life). Keep in mind that while reducing 58lbs is significant, the closer the weight reduction is to the axis of rotation, the lesser the advantage it has on the vehicle dynamics.

With that said, I stand by my comment. Exactly how much of performance was gained by using the lightweight wheels VS better rubber? What about the extra .5 inch width on the tires...exactly what role did that play in the time reduction.

In regards to the rest of your post, nearly everything I have posted has been presented as speculation....because it is just that. Almost all my posts with unproven theorys contain phrases like..."I beleive" or "I think". Is it wishfull thinking...perhaps. Is it a possibility, yes.

Nearly every post you have made has been presented as fact...when in all reality, it too is entirely speculation.

Do we know if the MY18 is going to gain or lose weight? Nope.
Do we know if the MY18 is going to compete with the 1le? Nope
Do we know if the MY18 is going to have 455 hp? Nope
Do we know if the GT350 is going to have the MPSS or PS4? Nope
Do we know that Ford won't sneak subtle chassis or magneride tweaks into the GT350? Nope
Has Ford released information to the general public stating the GT350 will be 100% the same as the MY17? Nope

You see where I'm going with this, right? All speculation.

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but did you read the article in the link I posted? They determined just how much of the gains were from the wheels vs. the tires by accelerating from a roll, taking traction out of the discussion completely. So, they measured it And it is a HUGE difference. It's not speculation.

And yes, I have made some speculations, but they are very reasonable speculations. Such as: if they add a bunch of content, such as DI/PI, Magneride, etc., that stuff will add a bit of weight and cost. Really not much of a stretch there.

Your speculations are on the border of ridiculous. To claim that Ford might have offset the weight of added content, and not bothered to advertise that in the press release is a big stretch. They advertised the forged wheels for this very reason. Of course they did, they would be stupid not to. You really sound like "the Pill". Just making stuff up out of thin air.

Your claim that Ford added chassis bracing and new Magneride tuning to the GT350 to make it better, is pretty far out there... Sure, it could have happened, but it is not very likely at all. You are the only one making that claim that I have seen, even on the Mustang boards. Go over to Mustang6G and make this claim in the GT350 board and see what responses you get. Me? I will just take Ford's word for it, no changes for the GT350. Perhaps the tires will change, since the old ones are going away. That's not much of a stretch, but extra bracing? new tuning on the Magneride? You made that up.

But, extra weight and cost for the refreshed Mustang is pretty darn likely. Not really a stretch of the imagination by any means. Not made up. Extra content is not free and/or weightless.

Now, how much weight and cost? I'm not sure, but they are both going up. Otherwise, we would have heard such from Ford.

[SpeedIsLife]

Apparently the Ford answer about pricing isn't exact, but they said it would be close to the 2017's.

I'm guessing a starting MSRP of 34,995 for a base GT ($990 increase) and 38,900 for a GT Premium (39,449 if the digital gauges are standard on a GT Prem).

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Apparently the Ford answer about pricing isn't exact, but they said it would be close to the 2017's.

I'm guessing a starting MSRP of 34,995 for a base GT ($990 increase) and 38,900 for a GT Premium (39,449 if the digital gauges are standard on a GT Prem).

Sounds reasonable. Some of the added content come in the form of an option, rather than standard features too. So, I'm not expecting the base price to to through the roof or anything. The Magneride, for example, looks like it will be an option on the PP. And, you can get it on the EcoBoost. Not sure why MRC is not available on the non-SS Camaro models. It's a nice option to have, and GM can make a bit more money by selling more options. Perhaps it's because they would have to put more R&D into tuning it, since the SS has stiffer springs and sway bars.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Sounds reasonable. Some of the added content come in the form of an option, rather than standard features too. So, I'm not expecting the base price to to through the roof or anything. The Magneride, for example, looks like it will be an option on the PP. And, you can get it on the EcoBoost. Not sure why MRC is not available on the non-SS Camaro models. It's a nice option to have, and GM can make a bit more money by selling more options. Perhaps it's because they would have to put more R&D into tuning it, since the SS has stiffer springs and sway bars.

The main price jump on GT's will likely be due to the improvements in the manual and the 5.0. Ford's being very very vague on it..they mentioned they've changed the gear ratios around so that it now has double overdrives and a lower 1st gear..hmm..sounds kinda like a Tremec, but we'll see.

The A10 will be more spendy than the outgoing A6, but probably only around $200 more..not much.

For the Coyote it's getting the DI/PI combo as well as other improvements..it won't be as expensive as it could be since it'll be shared with the F150 as well.

[mcsoul]

If the GT has a 10sp auto with mag ride, slight power bump from the factory and start offering staged power adders on top of that, it will be a compelling package. I wish they would have lifted the gt350 front end verbatim instead of the redesign, I'll have to see it in person.

[Mustang Fanboy]

I love rhetoric, so I’ll oblige.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, but did you read the article in the link I posted? They determined just how much of the gains were from the wheels vs. the tires by accelerating from a roll, taking traction out of the discussion completely. So, they measured it And it is a HUGE difference. It's not speculation.

Yes, I have read the article, and it does not in any way show exactly how much of an affect the wheels themselves have on track time. It only shows you what you already know, that it is easier to accelerate a lighter wheel (assuming it has a lower moment of inertia).

Let me break down why that article does nothing for me.
1) The GT350 is traction limited on breaking. What I mean by this is, if you take away the ABS, that the GT350 (and R) have enough breaking power to lock up any wheels/tires you put on them. Why is this important you ask? Well, if you are traction limited, the extra rotating mass on the non R is not detrimental to the breaking performance, and therefore the tire compound and section width will be the driving factor in breaking performance. As we all know, the later you can break into a corner, the more speed you are able to carry through the apex…and the quicker you can exit. The Sport cup 2’s on the R have are far superior to the MPSS, and are nearly a half inch wider.

Per Michelins website here…http://www.michelinman.com/US/en/tir...ort-cup-2.html
The Sport Cup 2’s are 1.8 seconds per lap faster…
“Faster on a dry track. -1.8 seconds per lap”
“Based on internal max handling testing at the Jerez Circuit with a Porsche 997 GT3 (235/35ZR19 F & 305/30ZR19 R) compared to the MICHELIN® Pilot® Sport
Cup+.”

So Michelin claims a 1.8 second reduction in lap time compared to the Sport Cup+….which is superior to the MPSS. Some food for thought there.


2) The Sport Cup 2 tires that the GT350 is wearing is a half inch wider, yet 2.7 lbs lighter. So at least some of the weight reduction on the R’s wheel/tires comes from the tires themselves. Keep in mind, the father the mass is from the radius, the greater the effect on the moment of inertia.
3) The Sport Cup 2 tires are 1 inch in diameter SMALLER than the MPSS. How much of an affect does this have on acceleration?

So what does this all mean?
It means until someone starts swapping out tires on wheels, we won’t know exactly how much of a performance difference comes from the tire compound, the tire section width, the tire weight reduction, the decreased diameter or the wheel weight reduction.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

And yes, I have made some speculations, but they are very reasonable speculations. Such as: if they add a bunch of content, such as DI/PI, Magneride, etc., that stuff will add a bit of weight and cost. Really not much of a stretch there. Your speculations are on the border of ridiculous. To claim that Ford might have offset the weight of added content, and not bothered to advertise that in the press release is a big stretch. They advertised the forged wheels for this very reason. Of course they did, they would be stupid not to. You really sound like "the Pill". Just making stuff up out of thin air.

So now you are saying that your speculations are better than my speculations lol. It’s a bit absurd if you ask me.
Do you have any more evidence that the mustang is going to get heavier than I do of it not changing/getting lighter? Hell no you don’t. You are guessing as much as everyone (myself included) is on this thread.

Some food for thought on the weight. While I don’t have anything showing the PS4 tire weights, It’s safe to assume they will be equal or lighter than the MPSS. The MPSS tires are 1.7 lbs/a piece lighter than the Pirellis. 4 tires give a 6.8lb weight reduction…and keep in mind, this is un-sprung weight. Is this proof? Nope, still speculation…but you have no more evidence than I do here…and neither “guess” is more valid than the other.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Your claim that Ford added chassis bracing and new Magneride tuning to the GT350 to make it better, is pretty far out there... Sure, it could have happened, but it is not very likely at all. You are the only one making that claim that I have seen, even on the Mustang boards. Go over to Mustang6G and make this claim in the GT350 board and see what responses you get. Me? I will just take Ford's word for it, no changes for the GT350. Perhaps the tires will change, since the old ones are going away. That's not much of a stretch, but extra bracing? new tuning on the Magneride? You made that up.

Huh, why don’t you go back and read my posts, I never made such a claim. What I did do was say that it is possible. Did I say Ford was going to do it? Nope. Did I make it up? Yes I did…the same way you made up that the mustang is going to get heavier. Do you see how that works? While Ford did seem to release a bulletin to dealers indicating that there would be no changes to the MY18 GT350, what is stopping them from making small, mostly un-detectable tweaks? Is it getting the new dash configuration? Is it getting the interior upgrades? Is it getting the PS4 tires? Who the hell knows now. I for one would think long and hard about buying a MY18 GT350 that doesn’t have all of the goodies that come on the standard GT…especially consider the performance delta is going to be much smaller…and an entirely new platform is going to come out in 3 years.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

But, extra weight and cost for the refreshed Mustang is pretty darn likely. Not really a stretch of the imagination by any means. Not made up. Extra content is not free and/or weightless.

Now, how much weight and cost? I'm not sure, but they are both going up. Otherwise, we would have heard such from Ford.

I absolutely agree…cost is going up.

You have no proof showing weight is going to change…at all. You are flat out guessing. I have already shown a probably un-sprung weight reduction. There likely will be some minor savings with the new sheet metal. Who knows what they have done to the suspension or chassis. Do you know how much more the magneride weighs in the GT? Do you know if they have made any changes that affect weight? I’m sorry, but your guess is no better than mine.

You keep on claiming that “Otherwise, we would have heard such from Ford”. What exactly have they really told us? Do we know what the HP/TQ is going to be? Do we know how the updates have affected weight? Do we know what the new ¼ mile is going to be? Stopping Distance? Fuel economy?