[doc7000]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So why does everyone keep saying the Camaro is not longer held down by the Corvette?

You can’t say the Camaro isn’t held down by the Corvette and also say the Camaro will never get its own engines.

Camaro isn't held back in the sense of in the past they wouldn't give the Camaro the same exact engine that the Corvette had. In other words the Camaro would have never gotten the same 650BHP engine that the Corvette has and yet here we are.

Will GM spend the money to develop an exclusive engine for Camaro only is the question here. The truth is at this point in time no one knows if GM is willing to develop an engine exclusively for the Camaro though this is an issue of money.

Now look at it this way, the Camaro has the better transmission with the automatic 10 speed transmission and the Camaro got it first. So is GM now holding back the Corvette to protect the Camaro? yet no one will make this claim. It is because we know that the 10 speed doesn't fit in the Corvette, yes the 10 speed doesn't fit in the Corvette and we don't know if GM is willing to invest in money to develop an engine just for the Camaro.

But wait, the COPO Camaro has a 302 cubic inch generation V engine which is only used for the COPO program. Though lets be honest here, Camaro going to the Corvette engine bin to pick up some engines isn't a bad thing.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So why does everyone keep saying the Camaro is not longer held down by the Corvette?

You can’t say the Camaro isn’t held down by the Corvette and also say the Camaro will never get its own engines.

Actually you can. The reason Camaro will probably never get its own engine has nothing at all to do with the Corvette. It has more to do with the fact that in a 54.5 mpg fleet average - moving towards electrification era, you will not see another new V8 engine developed. Period. Assuming that the rumors are true about a mid-engine Corvette, that will likely be the last new V8 developed by GM. The current Small Block V8 will continue to be refined for as long as V8 engines are relevant.

There is already significant performance overlap between Corvettes and Camaros. Expect that overlap to become even more prevalent. GM recognizes that for the most part, Corvette and Camaro appeal to different customer bases. There are some customers (like me) who shop considering both products, but Corvettes are targeting people who are considering Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and maybe even McLarens. Camaros are targeting people considering Mustangs, Challengers, Supras, M3/4/5. V-Series cars are targeting M3/4/5, AMGs, Jaguars, Audis et cetera. Handcuffing one over a couple of hp doesn't make sense if it prevents it from competing head on with its external competitor set.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

...
I wouldn't say it's held back, maybe I just think people need to realize that unless the LT1 gets updated for both, its not going to happen for just one of them.



While they may not say you can't use this engine until Corvette does, almost every new small block that is performance oriented has debuted in the corvette(Exception is the LSA)

LS1 Vette, LS2 Vette, LS3 Vette LS7 Vette, LT1 Vette, LT4 Vette. If you were to bet on a new revised LT1 ala LT2 coming soon it's most likely going to show up in the Corvette first.

For Camaro Gen 1 - 4, Camaro was definitely hand-cuffed and not allowed to cross the Corvette line. Then there was a long gap, and a lot better understanding of external competitors and customer shopping behavior by the time Gen 5 came out. Gen 5 definitely had to pull engines from the Corvette parts bin. What else was there? But when Gen 6 was developed, it was no holds barred. Don't worry about stepping on Corvette toes, because of the understanding that customers for each car typically (not NEVER....TYPICALLY) do not shop the other car. And because of the understanding that Camaro competitors could care less if Camaro had to step beyond the Corvette line to beat those competitors.

The reason Corvette got LT1 first was because at the time LT1 became available, Corvette was the first of the two to have a major upgrade (2014). Camaro didn't get it in 2015 because it didn't make sense to engineer it in for one model year. 2016 got it right out of the gate. If Camaro had refreshed before Corvette, it still would have gotten LT1.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

For Camaro Gen 1 - 4, Camaro was definitely hand-cuffed and not allowed to cross the Corvette line. Then there was a long gap, and a lot better understanding of external competitors and customer shopping behavior by the time Gen 5 came out. Gen 5 definitely had to pull engines from the Corvette parts bin. What else was there? But when Gen 6 was developed, it was no holds barred. Don't worry about stepping on Corvette toes, because of the understanding that customers for each car typically (not NEVER....TYPICALLY) do not shop the other car. And because of the understanding that Camaro competitors could care less if Camaro had to step beyond the Corvette line to beat those competitors.

The reason Corvette got LT1 first was because at the time LT1 became available, Corvette was the first of the two to have a major upgrade (2014). Camaro didn't get it in 2015 because it didn't make sense to engineer it in for one model year. 2016 got it right out of the gate. If Camaro had refreshed before Corvette, it still would have gotten LT1.

Thanks for the very insightful response. Again all I am saying now is that if I was a betting man and I was gonna bet on a LT2 showing up in the Camaro or Corvette first I would put my money on the Vette, bc that is where history shows it will show up first.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes they are, I am not denying that lol. They could have used a different blower on the LT4 for the ZL1 and CTS-V. You yourself even said you wouldn't buy a ZL1 because of the tiny blower. DOn't you wonder what they could do if they could have a bit more input on the engine?

The point I was making concedes that the Camaro shares with Corvette and Cadillac. GM develops engines for the group. Not the one

Originally Posted by shaffe

Getting a little salty there? Why bring the S550 into this when we are talking about Corvette tech trickling down to Camaro. Only mention of Mustang's was that GM chose not to respond in the previous gen?

In response to this (below). Mustang, in my opinion, is limited by the fact it gets its own. Camaro shares from some of the best performance development in the world.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think others are also mad/irked by the fact that Mustang will get unique engines are Camaro has to stand by with what ever Corvette is offering.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Thanks for the very insightful response. Again all I am saying now is that if I was a betting man and I was gonna bet on a LT2 showing up in the Camaro or Corvette first I would put my money on the Vette, bc that is where history shows it will show up first.

I got that. All I'm saying is you are probably right that Corvette could get it first, but not for the reasons that you are stating. If Corvette gets it first, it's because of the sequence of refresh cycles, not because Corvette HAS TO get it before Camaro.

[Thill444]

GM can easily milk the current V8's for years to come with minor tweaks such as port injection and slight changes to internals. Adding the 10 speed auto will help bump performance and improve fuel economy.

I personally think the biggest advantage for the next gen Corvette and Camaro is further weight savings. It improves speed, handling, braking, fuel economy, etc. Sure 500+ horsepower sounds good, but I would take a lighter car that has less horsepower and gains all the advantages I mentioned.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Actually you can. The reason Camaro will probably never get its own engine has nothing at all to do with the Corvette. It has more to do with the fact that in a 54.5 mpg fleet average - moving towards electrification era, you will not see another new V8 engine developed. Period. Assuming that the rumors are true about a mid-engine Corvette, that will likely be the last new V8 developed by GM. The current Small Block V8 will continue to be refined for as long as V8 engines are relevant.

There is already significant performance overlap between Corvettes and Camaros. Expect that overlap to become even more prevalent. GM recognizes that for the most part, Corvette and Camaro appeal to different customer bases. There are some customers (like me) who shop considering both products, but Corvettes are targeting people who are considering Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and maybe even McLarens. Camaros are targeting people considering Mustangs, Challengers, Supras, M3/4/5. V-Series cars are targeting M3/4/5, AMGs, Jaguars, Audis et cetera. Handcuffing one over a couple of hp doesn't make sense if it prevents it from competing head on with its external competitor set.

Of course you mean after the DOHC supposedly coming out in a year or so?

Also, unless a LOT changes, there will be V8s simply for the trucks. May not be an all new development as you suggest, but they will certainly be refined.
Can't haul or tow or do real work with the EV propulsion systems on the table. Even the propulsion system proposed by Tesla, which requires the weight of a pickup truck in batteries has market limitations. It works, but in a somewhat limited capacity.

Originally Posted by Thill444

GM can easily milk the current V8's for years to come with minor tweaks such as port injection and slight changes to internals. Adding the 10 speed auto will help bump performance and improve fuel economy.

I personally think the biggest advantage for the next gen Corvette and Camaro is further weight savings. It improves speed, handling, braking, fuel economy, etc. Sure 500+ horsepower sounds good, but I would take a lighter car that has less horsepower and gains all the advantages I mentioned.

Getting weight out costs a ton of money......see what I did there

Aluminum is triple the cost of steel. Composites can help, but CF is still way out there in cost. As you correctly point out, less weight helps pretty much everything except crash performance. In that case mass wins......every time. Simply for FE alone, if weight savings were easy and cheap we would have it. It is neither cheap nor easy. And the structure needed to be 5 star competes against weight. As for the Corvette? Already aluminum body structure with CF and composites. There isn't much more meat on that bone unless you just go smaller.

[Thill444]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Of course you mean after the DOHC supposedly coming out in a year or so?

Also, unless a LOT changes, there will be V8s simply for the trucks. May not be an all new development as you suggest, but they will certainly be refined.
Can't haul or tow or do real work with the EV propulsion systems on the table. Even the propulsion system proposed by Tesla, which requires the weight of a pickup truck in batteries has market limitations. It works, but in a somewhat limited capacity.



Getting weight out costs a ton of money......see what I did there

Aluminum is triple the cost of steel. Composites can help, but CF is still way out there in cost. As you correctly point out, less weight helps pretty much everything except crash performance. In that case mass wins......every time. Simply for FE alone, if weight savings were easy and cheap we would have it. It is neither cheap nor easy. And the structure needed to be 5 star competes against weight. As for the Corvette? Already aluminum body structure with CF and composites. There isn't much more meat on that bone unless you just go smaller.

As with all things as more and more manufacturers turn to composites, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc the costs will go down. But yes your right there is a cost but other companies have been able to reduce weight considerably with their economy cars (see Mazda) without drastically raising prices.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Thill444

As with all things as more and more manufacturers turn to composites, carbon fiber, aluminum, etc the costs will go down. But yes your right there is a cost but other companies have been able to reduce weight considerably with their economy cars (see Mazda) without drastically raising prices.

And so has GM with much less credit. I doubt a Mazda is significantly lighter than a comparable GM car. But I offer no more data to back up GM's success than you do for Mazda other than to point out that a Cadillac CT6 weighs what a Camaro does and that's a full size sedan.

CF is only part of volume usage. It fundanpmentally takes a long time to produce. As does SMC and most plastics. Time to produce is a big part of a parts cost. Aluminum won't cost less because more people use it. It's a lot of processing.

[doc7000]

There are a number of different processes to produce carbon fiber parts which translates to some type of parts will be able to be cheaply made from carbon fiber.

With that said the Chevy Cruze, Malibu, Camaro, and Nox all lost weight over at Chevy (I am sure that the traverse also lost some weight as well).

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by doc7000

There are a number of different processes to produce carbon fiber parts which translates to some type of parts will be able to be cheaply made from carbon fiber.

With that said the Chevy Cruze, Malibu, Camaro, and Nox all lost weight over at Chevy (I am sure that the traverse also lost some weight as well).

Longer, wider, and 362 pounds lighter. GM has been kicking @$$ in new architecture development. Silverado is also larger, yet 450 lbs lighter. That's almost two weight classes.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The point I was making concedes that the Camaro shares with Corvette and Cadillac. GM develops engines for the group. Not the one




In response to this (below). Mustang, in my opinion, is limited by the fact it gets its own. Camaro shares from some of the best performance development in the world.

You got me there that I brought it up haha. I agree where GM pulls engines from is amazing.

IMO I don't think that limits Ford, they can do what they see fit to make the car.

GT down on power but received continual updates. Went from 411 to 420 to 435 to now 460 in 7 years. I think that is what some would like to see. You may see that as Ford having to play catch up (And you are right) I think some people just want to see GM respond when the competition does.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I got that. All I'm saying is you are probably right that Corvette could get it first, but not for the reasons that you are stating. If Corvette gets it first, it's because of the sequence of refresh cycles, not because Corvette HAS TO get it before Camaro.

LOL.