[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by RealG

Truck driving is a dead industry it’s going to be replaced with autonomous sooner rather than later. Big companies need to get rid of cost and labor is cost. Truck drivers will be like the gas station attendants of the 50s. As far as the EV Camaro goes performance is what will rule the day. If EV starts smoking gas powered cars people will gravitate to the faster car. New muscle versus old muscle. Internal combustion versus gas. The faster more practical Will win.

Just what we need. Computer controlled autonomous semis hauling 80,000 lbs on our highways.

When the computers start glitching out on a car it can destroy a few other cars and kill a few people.

When the computers glitch out on a rig it can take out a building and hundreds of people.

Computers glitch out. It’s a fact of computers and that will never change or be eliminated. Ever. There is no arguing that fact.

Autonomous rigs on the highways with us. Great

There’s no gravitating to faster cars. Electric appliances are not cars.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

My dad had a 69 GTO. Told me you really had to baby it when launching or else you didn't hook and be all over the place.


These new cars have so many nannies in place. I got cheap tires on me (dealer installed before being sold I guess) and just don't hook as well. Went to an empty dead in road and did some launches with traction control off and in sport mode and was fish tailing some.

some of the impressive burnouts were due to the tire technology of the time.i remember having a set of bias plies on the back of my 1966 tempest.it would roast em until you got bored with that.put a set of todays tires on an old musclecar and youd hook up a lot easier.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by CamaroSSStlfan

Also, EV seem to cater to nerds, and yuppies. Not your muscle car crowd. Just seems an electric Camaro is bastardizing the muscle car.

There's always been people who were attracted to the new thing just because it was new. Being seen as "forward-looking" or "on the cutting edge" means a lot to them. I'm not putting anybody down here, but it gets tiresome to hear comments that ultimately translate to "soon, you'll be living the transportation side of your life this new way and I don't care if you don't like it".

The traditional muscle car crowd was always more mechanically-oriented. Used to be, anyway, when muscle cars were all about the muscle and 'sports cars' and 'full-featured' was a contradiction of terms.

I'll hold out as long as possible! I'd much rather have your 2008 GT and throw on a super charger than have an EV Camaro! btw I had a 2006 GT. For that time period those were quick cars for the money. Love that chassis.

I hope you can make that first statement stick, and thanks.

I knew going in that the S197 chassis was basically a good one for a number of reasons (Sam Strano moving over to it in SCCA's F-stock autocrossing, and yes I did get to watch him drive a Mustang a couple of times). And I was still surprised by how little it took to give it some real track cred ( Link (with a video clip) to a post I made yesterday ).

Just so you know, back around 2005 I got to drive a 4th gen Firebird at autocross, and that was just such a nice easy car to drive hard, even for never having driven a 3rd or 4th gen before. My normal ride at the time was a '79 Chevy Malibu.

^^^ all nice mechanical/analog cars that were light on electronic technologies.



Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 43Camaro

So I agree with almost everything you said, with one exception. I also have a model Y Dual Motor Tesla Sport in the family. The EV feels like crap to me and the actual engineering of the CAR (Nuts and Bolts, Suspension ETC) feels ten years behind. The Tech in the car is unbelievable, but I think you need to seperate the two when comparing

This, exactly.

The trick after that is knowing yourself well enough to determine which of those really means more to you.

As the EV matures they will build more driving experience back in closing the gap between the two platforms.

Let's hope that whatever that is, it's real/physical in nature. Not synthesized via yet more technology.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

I’m still of the opinion that there is a tool for every task. There will be a slew of new EVs coming to market between now and 2030. And they will be better than ICE vehicles at a lot of things and that will suit a lot of people. Dragstrip will likely be one of those things where they prove to be better.

There will also be a number of things where ICE vehicles will be better, and despite the best intentions of California, Maine, and Washington, they will still be available. Until battery technology advances a couple more generations, BEVs will be compromised on road courses and ICE vehicles will still be available for that. In my opinion, if you’re an enthusiast who enjoys performance driving in an ICE vehicle, you’ll still have options. Fewer options, no doubt, but options.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Seriously? That thing impresses you?

Wow.

Yes, yes it does. Not sure why any serious car guy or gal wouldn’t. Absolutely impressive engineering.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m still of the opinion that there is a tool for every task. There will be a slew of new EVs coming to market between now and 2030. And they will be better than ICE vehicles at a lot of things and that will suit a lot of people. Dragstrip will likely be one of those things where they prove to be better.

There will also be a number of things where ICE vehicles will be better, and despite the best intentions of California, Maine, and Washington, they will still be available. Until battery technology advances a couple more generations, BEVs will be compromised on road courses and ICE vehicles will still be available for that. In my opinion, if you’re an enthusiast who enjoys performance driving in an ICE vehicle, you’ll still have options. Fewer options, no doubt, but options.

You may have choices but they will be probably be expensive…..and outlawed for sale in many states if not the country by then.

But 2030 is only 9 yers away. So even by 2023 if you had 100% of sales EVs (which is pretty much not possible) you’d still have well over 100 million ICE vehicles on the road by then. Older ones mind you but there would still be a need for gasoline. So as you point out someone will be making ICE vehicles if there is money to be made. As a point of reference, the GM Mark 5 big block is still in production. A company called PSI bought the tooling and is making them today,

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yes, yes it does. Not sure why any serious car guy or gal wouldn’t. Absolutely impressive engineering.

I’ve said it before I’ll say it till I die.

Electric appliances are not impressive. Anyone can make electric motors fast. Whoopty doo.

You’re not earning yourself any respect from me when you say stuff like this. So you might as well bark up someone else’s tree.

Electric appliances are junk. Just because Porsche’s name is on the trunk don’t make it special.

Sheesh.

Put the twin turbo flat 6, all wheel drive, and 7 speed manual gearbox in it and we’ll talk. Maybe. If you ask me to forgive you for thinking anything electric could possibly be for true enthusiasts, we might be able to hold a civil conversation.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I’ve said it before I’ll say it till I die.

Electric appliances are not impressive. Anyone can make electric motors fast. Whoopty doo.

You’re not earning yourself any respect from me when you say stuff like this. So you might as well bark up someone else’s tree.

Electric appliances are junk. Just because Porsche’s name is on the trunk don’t make it special.

Sheesh.

Put the twin turbo flat 6, all wheel drive, and 7 speed manual gearbox in it and we’ll talk. Maybe. If you ask me to forgive you for thinking anything electric could possibly be for true enthusiasts, we might be able to hold a civil conversation.

As an engineer in the industry, the Porsche and Audi are extremely impressive. Tesla is in an odd ball way.

Sorry to lose any respect because I understand and appreciate the technology. But you are pretty much wrong with your statement that anyone can make an EV fast. If it were as easy as you’d think the Bolt would be faster than a Camaro. It isn’t by a long shot because it’s actually hard to balance performance and range and other vehicle attributes. It still takes serious engineering and integration. Only sorry as a car guy you too aren’t able to get that.

[soloknight6]

I'm on number 3's side. Drove a mustang mach-e the other day (the first Ev I've ever driven.) I was very impressed, and at $0.10 per killowatt-hour, it would cost 5 bucks to charge (from half a tank.)

Maybe I got a taste of the Koolaid, but anyone who is against Ev's at this point has never put the pedal down in one, the torque is awesome.

I might buy one, and retire the Camaro to weekend toy duty haha (I gotta have a manual shifting V8 car for therapy reasons, but a quick electric SUV would make a great/fun commuter car)

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

As an engineer in the industry, the Porsche and Audi are extremely impressive. Tesla is in an odd ball way.

Sorry to lose any respect because I understand and appreciate the technology. But you are pretty much wrong with your statement that anyone can make an EV fast. If it were as easy as you’d think the Bolt would be faster than a Camaro. It isn’t by a long shot because it’s actually hard to balance performance and range and other vehicle attributes. It still takes serious engineering and integration. Only sorry as a car guy you too aren’t able to get that.

Spare me your bs. You should know by now exactly where I stand and to take your electric garbage elsewhere than a forum for the 6th Gen Camaro - we still have LT1s last I checked.

Maybe you have unicorn serum powering yours

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by soloknight6

I'm on number 3's side. Drove a mustang mach-e the other day (the first Ev I've ever driven.) I was very impressed, and at $0.10 per killowatt-hour, it would cost 5 bucks to charge (from half a tank.)

Maybe I got a taste of the Koolaid, but anyone who is against Ev's at this point has never put the pedal down in one, the torque is awesome.

I might buy one, and retire the Camaro to weekend toy duty haha (I gotta have a manual shifting V8 car for therapy reasons, but a quick electric SUV would make a great/fun commuter car)

As an owner of many Camaros and Corvettes over the years and now a Tesla Model 3 Performance I enjoy them all but the Tesla is the much better daily driver. Easier and more comfortable to drive in traffic, better tech and navigation, OTA software updates for new features and fixes, autopilot with autosteer on the highway, voice commands, cool and quiet while stuck in traffic, little to no maintenance, one pedal driving using regen braking to save on brakes and the massive torque keeps you smiling while costing much less to operate. 300 miles range is plenty and the battery charges up at home overnight so. you always leave with a "full tank" so to speak.

That said, if you need the v8 exhaust note, manual transmission, etc. that you get from an ICE muscle/sports car to make you smile then I would hang onto the Camaro or buy both if you can afford it.

As you mentioned, once a few ICE die hards drive a "performance EV", not some Chevy Bolt, they may change their mind. When I bought my Tesla, there were folks trading in Porsches, Corvettes, Maserati, etc. because they just love the torque and tech.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Yes, yes it does. Not sure why any serious car guy or gal wouldn’t. Absolutely impressive engineering.

The Hummer is totally awesome. An amazing vehicle. But it's way up in the high end of cost. I remember the old gas ones were quite expensive as well and had a bad reputation as a gas hog even when gas was cheap. I think the Hummer is a nice addition to GM's/gm's lineup. It did not unnecessarily replace a perfectly good ICE power plant with a battery powered one. With their high price, I doubt they will put much of a dent in the ICE world of off-road vehicles.

I think it is a bit of a stretch, though, to make a Hummer designed to negotiate the most remote and difficult terrain on batteries when the basic infrastructure for EVs to recharge is still a major hill to climb...(no pun intended). The Hummer is designed to be used in places that will likely be the last on earth to ever see any type of recharging facilities. But, not too surprising for a high-priced toy, status symbol that will likely never go off road to most buyers. Not in the EV for everyone category, for sure.

Originally Posted by Number 3

You may have choices but they will be probably be expensive…..and outlawed for sale in many states if not the country by then.

But 2030 is only 9 yers away. So even by 2023 if you had 100% of sales EVs (which is pretty much not possible) you’d still have well over 100 million ICE vehicles on the road by then. Older ones mind you but there would still be a need for gasoline. So as you point out someone will be making ICE vehicles if there is money to be made. As a point of reference, the GM Mark 5 big block is still in production. A company called PSI bought the tooling and is making them today,

Not sure when 2030 became a benchmark date of any note....2025: 30 gm EVs for sale world wide (roughly two thirds of those in the US)....2035: gm's announced year all ICE production will end, and the same year California will prohibit their sales within the state....2030:...?????

I remember when the Prius's were first being bought in significant numbers...Everyone hoped someone else would buy them so the demand for gas would go down and result in lower gas prices....lol...And at that time there was no talk of ending ICE or discouraging their sales or causing them to be a burden for anyone to own. Not exactly the case today. It seems EV popularity depends on ICE artificially and unfairly becoming gradually more undesirable. This is unfortunate and I think is the source of most resentment towards EVs today. Martin claimed EVs have been around for decades, but certainly no artificial advantage was given them in years past that is anywhere close to what is happening now. Pick your cause/excuse/explanation...They all do not end well for ICE...It is not a go ahead and choose one or the other....The game is rigged, and the winner already picked with ICE demonized as the problem and parroted endlessly to the masses. But , yeah, sure keep being a fan of ICE...That is until the pressure to bail out becomes too great. If EVs wins out in a free market all well and fine. That is definitely not going to happen.

Even if the demand for gasoline goes down and down, their will likely be no market price reduction allowed to happen that would benefit ICE owners.

Originally Posted by Number 3

As an engineer in the industry, the Porsche and Audi are extremely impressive. Tesla is in an odd ball way.

Sorry to lose any respect because I understand and appreciate the technology. But you are pretty much wrong with your statement that anyone can make an EV fast. If it were as easy as you’d think the Bolt would be faster than a Camaro. It isn’t by a long shot because it’s actually hard to balance performance and range and other vehicle attributes. It still takes serious engineering and integration. Only sorry as a car guy you too aren’t able to get that.

The Evs you mention (all the time...lol) are way out of price or practicality for the average car guy to consider as a replacement. At some point masses of drivers will be shut out of the market completely and left to public transportation or no transportation. ICE will be banned or cost prohibitive long before any ICE vehicle at an affordable price will be available. The Bolt sales do not reflect any mass popularity for EVs, and certainly the low production numbers of the EVs we see now are priced way to high. Gm's claim of a EV for everybody rings hollow, at least for now....

I think the reason you may see such vocal opposition (Sometimes way over the top and un-called for IMO) to EVs is that their success depends on the artificial elimination of perfectly fine ICE vehicles to insure their popularity. The US was energy independent and humming along just fine....Now we must throw it all away. Yes, of course EV success is the future and inevitable. Once it becomes unaffordable, impossible or illegal to purchase anything else, how could it not be? To say no one is "forced" to go EV is a half-truth at best. It's only a matter of degree and time before their is no other choice.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Just what we need. Computer controlled autonomous semis hauling 80,000 lbs on our highways.

When the computers start glitching out on a car it can destroy a few other cars and kill a few people.

When the computers glitch out on a rig it can take out a building and hundreds of people.

Computers glitch out. It’s a fact of computers and that will never change or be eliminated. Ever. There is no arguing that fact.

Autonomous rigs on the highways with us. Great

There’s no gravitating to faster cars. Electric appliances are not cars.

I would make arguments against computers, but yours is not a good argument.

Humans also glitch out. It's called mistakes. YouTube has plenty of proof if you want to look.

The argument I would have might be security. It's more difficult to convince a trucker to purposedly weave into someone you want to take out than hacking into a computer and then have it do your criminal bidding.

Another big part of it is just the ethics and laws can't keep up with it. If there is an accident, who is liable? Logically, I think that would usually point to whoever makes the AI and that creates a massive risk for any business that really wants to tap into it.

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I’ve said it before I’ll say it till I die.

Electric appliances are not impressive. Anyone can make electric motors fast. Whoopty doo.

You’re not earning yourself any respect from me when you say stuff like this. So you might as well bark up someone else’s tree.

Electric appliances are junk. Just because Porsche’s name is on the trunk don’t make it special.

Sheesh.

Put the twin turbo flat 6, all wheel drive, and 7 speed manual gearbox in it and we’ll talk. Maybe. If you ask me to forgive you for thinking anything electric could possibly be for true enthusiasts, we might be able to hold a civil conversation.

I think it's impressive, just in a different way.

It's like how I look at a Prius. As a car guy, Prius is always the butt end of jokes, but as an engineer, you have to give Toyota props for coming up with a reliable and practical hybrid system as early as 1997.

Again, you can say something is not for you(which I can totally agree with), but dismissing it as not impressive as if you can do better in your garage is pretty childish.

And heh, if someone goes to an AutoX or track with an EV and runs circles around me, that's worthy of my respect and that's an enthusiast.