Water/Meth injection do's and don'ts?

Jason@JacFab · 06-21-2017, 05:02 PM

Getting ready to start the install of my Snow Performance water/meth injection kit and have been reading up... Wanted to post to see what some of your thoughts are, and see if anyone else has already installed, where did you install your nozzle(s)?

So here's a neat page I found that discusses nozzle placement...
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...jection-nozzle

I gather that 1) you want it as far back from the throttle body as possible to allow for the moisture to be better absorbed by the air. 2) Installing the nozzle before the IAT2 sensor allows the sensor to read the cooler air temps allowing the ECM to adjust the timing itself accordingly

I see that you can also install after the IAT2 sensor, before or after the throttle body... But now you have to manually alter the tune for timing advance as the sensor never sees this cooler air. Also installing after the TB into the intake manifold, you have to install a solenoid to keep the engine vacuum from sucking the meth out of the line when you don't want it spraying. Devil's own says in the intake manifold will give max cooling effect and fuel must be trimmed from the tune.

So here's MY dilemma... From what I've seen, the nozzles spray straight. So imagine mounting the nozzle right into the side of the charge pipe. It sprays straight into the other side first, rather than shooting UP the pipe. Doesn't seem ideal to me? Or is it? Here's the next problem I see... The charge pipe runs vertically so mounting the nozzle here, I would tend to think that letting off the throttle, and the left over water/meth mixture still in the pipe would fall "out of the atmosphere" and it would pool in the bottom of the charge pipe in the tube that comes out of the intercooler... Is that valid?

So here was what I was thinking... (See diagram below) LEFT shows the above described scenarios... RIGHT shows my thought on the best possible theoretical nozzle placement (shoot straight into the throttle body), and relocate the IAT2 sensor to just before the end of the charge pipe... Not a lot of time to absorb the mixture into the incoming air, but close to the TB allowing max mixture directly into the intake without actually mounting the nozzle in the intake manifold, less "fall out" to pool on the bottom of the IC tube.

Thoughts? Or am I overthinking this?

RedonBlackRS · 06-21-2017, 05:07 PM

I hate saying this, but BMW's M4 GTS has the only production car water injection kit I can think of. Maybe replicate their placement?

b0bsaget007 · 06-21-2017, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

I hate saying this, but BMW's M4 GTS has the only production car water injection kit I can think of. Maybe replicate their placement?

Which so happens to be into the intake manifold, as it seems.

Ashium · 06-21-2017, 05:58 PM

Are you going to use this as a booster or just for cooling?

You are probably overthinking it a lil. It's only going to come on when the air speed is high. I see what you are getting at, but will the mist even make it to the other side of the pipe with a 30+ mph windstorm in between the two sides.

Since it seems to be taking forever for Mishi's stuff to hit the market. I've been eyeballing the AEM setup to install right after the intercooler on mine.

Jason@JacFab · 06-21-2017, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

I hate saying this, but BMW's M4 GTS has the only production car water injection kit I can think of. Maybe replicate their placement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0bsaget007

Which so happens to be into the intake manifold, as it seems.

Did some quick research on that... Pretty neat... Looks like 1 nozzle per cylinder?

Couple problems I see with that... 1) If a guy were to use only one nozzle, would centering it on the plenum ensure equal amounts of the mixture to each cylinder? 2) I don't know that I would trust screwing something into the plastic and not having it blow out under boost...

There is one place I could see having 4 nozzles, 1 in each runner... But if you ever had to change the nozzle for a different flow rate, it would be a HUGE pain in the @$$ to change them as the intake would have to be removed from the car.

Idea for injector placement w/ common rail. It actually seems like there is enough meat in the top of the runners here. Feels like maybe 1/4" thick on the roof of the runner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashiu

Are you going to use this as a booster or just for cooling?

You are probably overthinking it a lil. It's only going to come on when the air speed is high. I see what you are getting at, but will the mist even make it to the other side of the pipe with a 30+ mph windstorm in between the two sides.

Since it seems to be taking forever for Mishi's stuff to hit the market. I've been eyeballing the AEM setup to install right after the intercooler on mine.

A booster or just cooling? By cooling isn't it also boosting?

I want more power man! More cooling = more timing = more power! WOO!

I probably am over thinking it... But that's what I do. Maybe I should just slam it in the side of the charge pipe and call it a day.

I haven't looked at AEM's stuff, but I know there are a ton of companies that sell water/meth injection kits... Had I found Devil's Own prior to Snow Performance, I probably would have gone that route, a lot of there parts/pieces look like they are much better quality.

Jason@JacFab · 06-21-2017, 07:29 PM

Here's an interesting video... Notice how when the guy start giving it throttle it starts sucking the water beads from the previous blast up the pipe? And when he lets off how much ends up on the inside of the pipe?

A video showing spray patterns/misting action of several different nozzles.

Jason@JacFab · 06-21-2017, 08:11 PM

^^ pics don't work?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Evil-Bee-NH · 06-21-2017, 08:14 PM

I like your charge pipe idea for simplicities sake.

Ashium · 06-21-2017, 08:46 PM

Sorry I was a bit vague by boosting, I mean boosting octane then tuning for it, you can make some nice power, but you can also make a nice bomb if you run out of fluid.

All those extra droplets just help steam clean the motor. I don't even use fluid made for it on my other car, I just run windshield fluid in my tank, works great, super cheap lol.

geoffchad · 06-21-2017, 10:45 PM

A bunch of other cars have had water or water/meth injection in the past, but intercoolers made the systems nearly obsolete.

Saab 99 marked up pdf doc below:

http://saabworld.net/attachment.php?...9&d=1334321801

One of the Supra guys I know tried putting it before the turbo, after the turbo but before the intercooler, after the intercooler, and before the throttle body. Either way any "pooled" amounts when going off throttle were quickly evaporated and never made any issues and power/temperatures were within margin of error to each other. He ended up ditching the system for a co2 IC spray bar because it was ultimately easier to tune.

DatsunBob · 06-22-2017, 01:15 AM

Hop on the devils own forum. Top guys and support there. I dont think pooling is an issue until you run high volume nozzles, but most modern systems can stage the flow.

Placement is honestly a can of worms once you start digging. Ideally I'd inject at three locations: directly at the compressor wheel, after the IC, multiport in the IM. But I always turn a simple project into a complicated mess for the sake of what if...

ChicagoTommy · 06-22-2017, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason@JacFab

1) If a guy were to use only one nozzle, would centering it on the plenum ensure equal amounts of the mixture to each cylinder?

If you mount a single nozzle in the middle of the manifold, it's not going to distribute evenly. 2 closest cylinders will be fed, and the 2 outside cylinders will starve.

Jason@JacFab · 06-22-2017, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChicagoTommy

If you mount a single nozzle in the middle of the manifold, it's not going to distribute evenly. 2 closest cylinders will be fed, and the 2 outside cylinders will starve.

I had thought about that. My thought was to point the nozzle away from the runners into the opposite side of the plenum wall. Figured it might distribute more evenly that way... But looking at the intake the runners are too close together to mount it there...

I don't really want to spray right into the intake manifold though. Really want to spray before the sensor... Maybe dual nozzle... One before the sensor, one behind the throttle body built into a plate...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nate... · 06-23-2017, 06:25 AM

If you're just trying to cool the charge then I agree with cooper on placement. You will be more likely to maximize cooling if it is further from the IAT. But, if you want to use it as supplemental fuel (sounds like you don't) then closer to the combustion chamber is better so I would use your IAT relocation idea.

IMHO the pooling wont be an issue and it is a *safer* setup to put the nozzle far away from the IAT and just use the meth for cooling. (Because the ECM will be compensating for IAT on it's own so if you run out of meth you don't start running lean like you would if it was being used as fuel)

06-21-2017, 05:02 PM	#1
Jason@JacFab Drives: 2016 1LT RS Camaro; 72 Chevelle Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Point, OR Posts: 5,688 View My Garage	Water/Meth injection do's and don'ts? Getting ready to start the install of my Snow Performance water/meth injection kit and have been reading up... Wanted to post to see what some of your thoughts are, and see if anyone else has already installed, where did you install your nozzle(s)? So here's a neat page I found that discusses nozzle placement... http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...jection-nozzle I gather that 1) you want it as far back from the throttle body as possible to allow for the moisture to be better absorbed by the air. 2) Installing the nozzle before the IAT2 sensor allows the sensor to read the cooler air temps allowing the ECM to adjust the timing itself accordingly I see that you can also install after the IAT2 sensor, before or after the throttle body... But now you have to manually alter the tune for timing advance as the sensor never sees this cooler air. Also installing after the TB into the intake manifold, you have to install a solenoid to keep the engine vacuum from sucking the meth out of the line when you don't want it spraying. Devil's own says in the intake manifold will give max cooling effect and fuel must be trimmed from the tune. So here's MY dilemma... From what I've seen, the nozzles spray straight. So imagine mounting the nozzle right into the side of the charge pipe. It sprays straight into the other side first, rather than shooting UP the pipe. Doesn't seem ideal to me? Or is it? Here's the next problem I see... The charge pipe runs vertically so mounting the nozzle here, I would tend to think that letting off the throttle, and the left over water/meth mixture still in the pipe would fall "out of the atmosphere" and it would pool in the bottom of the charge pipe in the tube that comes out of the intercooler... Is that valid? So here was what I was thinking... (See diagram below) LEFT shows the above described scenarios... RIGHT shows my thought on the best possible theoretical nozzle placement (shoot straight into the throttle body), and relocate the IAT2 sensor to just before the end of the charge pipe... Not a lot of time to absorb the mixture into the incoming air, but close to the TB allowing max mixture directly into the intake without actually mounting the nozzle in the intake manifold, less "fall out" to pool on the bottom of the IC tube. Thoughts? Or am I overthinking this? Attached Images

06-21-2017, 08:14 PM	#8
Evil-Bee-NH 603 Camaros Drives: 2017 NGM I4 1LT Coupe Join Date: May 2012 Location: Manchester, NH Posts: 6,779 View My Garage	I like your charge pipe idea for simplicities sake. __________________ MY 2017 I4 CAMARO BUILD JOURNAL \| YOUTUBE \| INSTAGRAM \| 316RWHP - 385 RWTQ HPTUNERS DYNO TUNE \| 12.693s @ 105MPH 1/4 Mile

06-23-2017, 06:25 AM	#14
Nate... Drives: 2016 Camaro LTG Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 316	If you're just trying to cool the charge then I agree with cooper on placement. You will be more likely to maximize cooling if it is further from the IAT. But, if you want to use it as supplemental fuel (sounds like you don't) then closer to the combustion chamber is better so I would use your IAT relocation idea. IMHO the pooling wont be an issue and it is a safer setup to put the nozzle far away from the IAT and just use the meth for cooling. (Because the ECM will be compensating for IAT on it's own so if you run out of meth you don't start running lean like you would if it was being used as fuel) __________________ 2016 LTG Camaro in Hyper Blue with MRT V3 Catback and Brembo SS Brakes.

06-21-2017, 05:07 PM	#2
RedonBlackRS Drives: 1LT RS 2.0T 8A HD Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: McHenry, IL Posts: 239	I hate saying this, but BMW's M4 GTS has the only production car water injection kit I can think of. Maybe replicate their placement?

06-21-2017, 05:58 PM	#4
Ashium Drives: Camaro 2.0t, 300zx TT, LSTT Mustang Join Date: May 2016 Location: Miami Fl Posts: 109	Are you going to use this as a booster or just for cooling? You are probably overthinking it a lil. It's only going to come on when the air speed is high. I see what you are getting at, but will the mist even make it to the other side of the pipe with a 30+ mph windstorm in between the two sides. Since it seems to be taking forever for Mishi's stuff to hit the market. I've been eyeballing the AEM setup to install right after the intercooler on mine.

06-21-2017, 07:29 PM	#6
Jason@JacFab Drives: 2016 1LT RS Camaro; 72 Chevelle Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Point, OR Posts: 5,688 View My Garage	Here's an interesting video... Notice how when the guy start giving it throttle it starts sucking the water beads from the previous blast up the pipe? And when he lets off how much ends up on the inside of the pipe? A video showing spray patterns/misting action of several different nozzles.

06-21-2017, 08:11 PM	#7
Jason@JacFab Drives: 2016 1LT RS Camaro; 72 Chevelle Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Point, OR Posts: 5,688 View My Garage	^^ pics don't work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

06-21-2017, 08:46 PM	#9
Ashium Drives: Camaro 2.0t, 300zx TT, LSTT Mustang Join Date: May 2016 Location: Miami Fl Posts: 109	Sorry I was a bit vague by boosting, I mean boosting octane then tuning for it, you can make some nice power, but you can also make a nice bomb if you run out of fluid. All those extra droplets just help steam clean the motor. I don't even use fluid made for it on my other car, I just run windshield fluid in my tank, works great, super cheap lol.

06-21-2017, 10:45 PM	#10
geoffchad Drives: 2013 ATS M6, 95 Z28 Conv M6 turbo Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 72	A bunch of other cars have had water or water/meth injection in the past, but intercoolers made the systems nearly obsolete. Saab 99 marked up pdf doc below: http://saabworld.net/attachment.php?...9&d=1334321801 One of the Supra guys I know tried putting it before the turbo, after the turbo but before the intercooler, after the intercooler, and before the throttle body. Either way any "pooled" amounts when going off throttle were quickly evaporated and never made any issues and power/temperatures were within margin of error to each other. He ended up ditching the system for a co2 IC spray bar because it was ultimately easier to tune.

06-22-2017, 01:15 AM	#11
DatsunBob Drives: ATS 2.0t Rwd Performance Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Socal Posts: 24	Hop on the devils own forum. Top guys and support there. I dont think pooling is an issue until you run high volume nozzles, but most modern systems can stage the flow. Placement is honestly a can of worms once you start digging. Ideally I'd inject at three locations: directly at the compressor wheel, after the IC, multiport in the IM. But I always turn a simple project into a complicated mess for the sake of what if...

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