[wjones14]

Originally Posted by chris227

A 1984 Camaro Z28 is outclassed in all aspects by a 20116-18 4 banger. Not even in the same ballpark. A fully loaded 1984 Z28 has less options then a base model 16-18. Not a correct comparison. advancements in technology skew the price. That was then this is now. The car is different in every aspect.

You missed the point. I'm not comparing the 1984 and 2018 Camaros...

The point is, in 1984, you could buy a bare bones Camaro Z28 for $10,600. That's equivalent to $25,600 in 2018 dollars. Can you buy a Camaro 1SS for for $25,600? How about $35,600?

How do other cars compare? A 1984 Toyota Corolla started at $6,688. In 2018 dollars that is $16,163. Can that buy you a new Corolla? Not quite, but it's close. The 2018 Corolla is $18,600.

Toyota Corolla prices have marginally increased since 1984. Chevy Camaro prices have drastically increased.

That's the point you missed. It wasn't that today's Camaro or Corolla both offer a lot more car than in 1984.

[samurai]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Kudos to Challenger, growing in retail sales and ATP's. Mustang leading the pack in retail volume but at a lower average price point. Camaro's not all doom and gloom.

Retail ATP's 2018 (JDPin)
Camaro: $40,814
Challenger: $38,241
Mustang: $34,798

Retail Sales 2018
Mustang: 29,548
Challenger: 25,783
Camaro: 24,809

Funny all three are generating about the same retail revenue YTD but achieving it differently. Despite the comments about "expensive muscle cars" they are on track to produce $2B in revenue for each respective automaker this year. How much profit they yield is anybody's guess.

Happy 4th everyone

Wow, thanks for that information. Where do you get these numbers from?

[martelds]

Maybe GM thought the new Transformer movies would help sell the 6th Gen. It worked for them with the 5th. But the problem is the new movie suck and it's now a tired franchise, and come to think of it. I never see Corvette adds. So maybe I'm wrong about this.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by wjones14

You missed the point. I'm not comparing the 1984 and 2018 Camaros...

The point is, in 1984, you could buy a bare bones Camaro Z28 for $10,600. That's equivalent to $25,600 in 2018 dollars. Can you buy a Camaro 1SS for for $25,600? How about $35,600?

How do other cars compare? A 1984 Toyota Corolla started at $6,688. In 2018 dollars that is $16,163. Can that buy you a new Corolla? Not quite, but it's close. The 2018 Corolla is $18,600.

Toyota Corolla prices have marginally increased since 1984. Chevy Camaro prices have drastically increased.

That's the point you missed. It wasn't that today's Camaro or Corolla both offer a lot more car than in 1984.

Your logic is very narrowly focused and extremely flawed.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Smokin15

$$$$$ It's all about money. Cars are going up and up in price every year, are your wages keeping up? The squeeze for money hit's all of us and especially those starting a family with a house payment. Most can't afford a $45-$55K car that seats only two and then finance it for 5, 6 or 7 years. It's all about priorities and expensive cars are just getting out of range for a lot of people. Be honest here, aren't we all juggling our finances just to own these cars?

Then you shouldn't be looking at $50k camaros if that is the case. If you are new to the family game, you don't buy Camaros for the most part. You start like most people do. Buy you a fkn Camry or something. A mini van. A truck. Something other than a sports car. It's impractical. Now, once the kids get older and your wife eventually shuts up about the finances, then you can sneak in the Camaro when she's not looking. Then again, that isn't a happy marriage. I buy what I want, when I want. The wife says nothing and enjoys the rides.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Your logic is very narrowly focused and extremely flawed.

Mike, would you please do me a favor and correct me?

Thank you.

[CamaroSS50]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Mustang and Challenger are selling, so I doubt this is the issue.



Here’s the thing....on THIS forum most are gagging on the SS front fascia and proclaiming the 2019 refresh a failure. The appearance of the LS and LT versions is (in my opinion) MUCH improved over 2016-18 and could very well result in improved base and mid-trim sales. We here tend to get caught up in SS, 1LE, and ZL1 compared to Mustang GT, GT350, and the upcoming(?) GT500 and Hellcat and Demon / Redeye. All these vehicles are the tip of the spear. Most Mustangs I see are 2.3T. Most Challengers I see are V6 or 5.7L. And I live in an area where people work for the companies and get full discounts, so I probably see more GTs, Scat Packs, and Hellcats than most people on this forum. Yet, base and mid level Stangs and Challengers far outnumber those.

GM NEVER lays out its entire portfolio at the same time EXCEPT at major auto shows, and then not until the last piece is being announced. It is not unusual to confirm that the ATS and CTS are going away without confirming if either will be replaced and if so, with what. CT5 will be positioned to replace CTS and the top end of ATS. There will be an as yet unannounced vehicle smaller than CT5 and all indications are it will also be off Alpha / Alpha 2. That is NOT confirmed and I am not the one to confirm it.

A lot of truth here. GM is targeting a much narrower slice of the pie than Ford is targeting with Mustang and far narrower than FCA is targeting with Challenger. That is why both are doing much better on the base and mid-level trims.

I have no problem accepting the performance for functionality trade offs made for my V8 convertible. I have other options in my driveway. But if I still had small kids that I needed to take places or needed to rely on my car for family trips, I’d be in a Challenger or Charger (that’s a lie....CTS / CT5. Just trying to keep the discussion “in-segment”). People who buy the car for DESIGN and PRICE are less likely to accept the trunk space, rear seat room and visibility compromises than those of us who want the most performance for the money. Did you buy your Camaro to be a “ME” car or a “WE” car? Mine is definitely a ME car, so the trunk space / rear seat space were a non-issue. My wife is scared to drive it because it’s more powerful than our last Corvette, and that car made her nervous. People who need a WE car are probably best suited with a Challenger / Charger, maybe to a lesser degree in a Mustang, but still an improvement over a Camaro.



Quoted for truth. Well said 13vertss.

Martinjlm, that is fine, but Mark Reuss (GM product chief), less than a year ago, acknowledged that they are trying to regain sales and compete directly with both Mustang & Challenger.

Here is the article (August 10, 2017):

http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...3/chevy-camaro

Chevy reassessing trim, build options on Camaro


DETROIT -- General Motors is re-assessing some trim and build options for the Chevrolet Camaro in an attempt to increase sales and better compete against the Ford Mustang and Dodge Challenger, according to product chief Mark Reuss.

The company, according to Reuss, sees opportunities to better position the muscle car's price points at the base and V-8 levels.

"I think we've got opportunities at the very low end of the Camaro range and some remix of some of the V-8 options on it so we don't force people to buy all the options with a V-8, just to get a V-8," Reuss told reporters following a media at the company's world headquarters here to unveil a new Camaro ZL1 race car for the Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series.

Reuss, executive vice president of global product development, purchasing and supply chain, declined to comment on specifics or timing of the potential changes. A Chevrolet spokesman confirmed the brand is "exploring a bunch of opportunities" to expand the vehicle's range, but also declined to comment on specifics.

"The Mustang and some of the cars in the segment will have a lower base price and that's an opportunity for us probably," Reuss said.

The 2017 and 2018 Camaro start at $26,900 with a 2.0-liter four-cylinder turbocharged engine. Opting for a 3.6-liter V-6 bumps up the price $1,495 to $28,395. That compares to the 2017 Mustang starting at $26,085 with a 3.7-liter V-6 engine and the 2017 Challenger with a base price of $28,090 for a 3.6-liter V-6. All prices include shipping.

A Camaro equipped with a V-8 engine starts at about $38,000 at the SS trim level, while the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T V-8 models start at about $34,100.

Camaro sales in the U.S. were down 2.5 percent through July to 41,280, according to the Automotive News Data Center. That compares to a 30 percent drop to 50,814 vehicles for the Mustang and 2.6 percent increase for the Challenger to 41,243.

The Camaro racer for NASCAR is expected to begin racing next year. It replaces the Chevrolet SS, which the company has announced will be discontinued as it ends vehicle manufacturing in Australia.


----

GM knows it has an issue. It simply has not been capable at addressing it.

[CamaroSS50]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Okay, so a top of the line Camaro Z28 in 1984, with all options was $15,500. In today's dollars, that's ~$37,460. You can't even buy a 2018 1SS with zero options at that price.

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl


According to the build and price configuration Chevy website, a bare bones 2018 Camaro 1SS is $37,995. Move up to a blue 2018 Camaro 2SS with 1LE option, and you're at $50,390. No sunroof, no PDR, no navigation, etc.

The Camaro pricing has increased much more than inflation. Maybe that's true for all cars in general - I don't know.

A fully loaded, vehicle in 1984 (Camaro or Trans Am) with all available technology for the time could be had for roughly $17K.

In 2018, that purchase power is roughly $42K.

So, it is a nominal difference.

[Martinjlm]

CamaroSS50,

Yes, Mark talked a lot about addressing the price point difference. He did not talk about changing the target market. What I referred to as the ME car vs the WE car. Because of the physical trade offs made to deliver a top performance vehicle off the Alpha platform, fixing the trade offs would require a significant modification to the architecture. Getting trunk space and sight lines more competitive with Challenger or Mustang would require serious metal bending. That would have to be a 7th Gen objective IF GM / Chevy / Reuss / Oppenheiser decide they want to broaden the market to include family practicality. I’ve seen no indication that this is something they are considering. It would have to be more like CTS / CT5 and less like ATS. A bigger car. A taller car. Maybe even a wider car. I don’t see that happening.

Mark was talking about making V8 an option in a package less pricey than a 1SS. Same target market, lower price point. And that even is not a slam dunk. Where will the buyers for the lower priced, let’s call it 0SS come from? If they could legitimately come from Mustang GT or Challenger 5.7L intenders that would be a go. But if it only provides an opportunity for customers who would have bought a 1SS to get a fast car for a lot less money (lower ATP) that would be a non-starter. Personally, I don’t know how that is likely to land, but I’m certain there are some really sharp people working on it.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by CamaroSS50

A fully loaded, vehicle in 1984 (Camaro or Trans Am) with all available technology for the time could be had for roughly $17K.

In 2018, that purchase power is roughly $42K.

So, it is a nominal difference.

Well, first off, another member said here in this thread that he ticked off every option and his 1984 Camaro was $15,500. I showed my 1984 Z28 window sticker here in this thread, where I added all the available performance options (L69 engine, Limited Slip), plus the normal convenience options (A/C, Cruise, Rear Defogger, Tinted Glass, and the premium interior). Mine was $13,400.

Not that I don't believe you that you could get a 1984 Z28 coupe to $17K, but maybe you have a window sticker showing how?

But, let's go with your figure of $17K. That's equivalent to $42K today, then... how much is a 2018 Camaro coupe with every option ticked? I guess when you say it's only a nominal difference, then it won't be much more than $42K?

Not even sure why we're arguing about this?

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

CamaroSS50,

Yes, Mark talked a lot about addressing the price point difference. He did not talk about changing the target market. What I referred to as the ME car vs the WE car. Because of the physical trade offs made to deliver a top performance vehicle off the Alpha platform, fixing the trade offs would require a significant modification to the architecture. Getting trunk space and sight lines more competitive with Challenger or Mustang would require serious metal bending. That would have to be a 7th Gen objective IF GM / Chevy / Reuss / Oppenheiser decide they want to broaden the market to include family practicality. I’ve seen no indication that this is something they are considering. It would have to be more like CTS / CT5 and less like ATS. A bigger car. A taller car. Maybe even a wider car. I don’t see that happening.

Mark was talking about making V8 an option in a package less pricey than a 1SS. Same target market, lower price point. And that even is not a slam dunk. Where will the buyers for the lower priced, let’s call it 0SS come from? If they could legitimately come from Mustang GT or Challenger 5.7L intenders that would be a go. But if it only provides an opportunity for customers who would have bought a 1SS to get a fast car for a lot less money (lower ATP) that would be a non-starter. Personally, I don’t know how that is likely to land, but I’m certain there are some really sharp people working on it.

Lowering the belt line and/or raising the roof should have been done with the 6th gen. The restyle should have been noticeable also so everyone knew the 6th gen was a new, better , lighter Camaro. To late now, have to wait till the 7th gen. All Camaro needed to do was match the content with Mustang base cars in every model line and price them 100 dollars less. Camaro has more tech and goodies than Mustangs, make it all optional to those who want it.

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

CamaroSS50,

Yes, Mark talked a lot about addressing the price point difference. He did not talk about changing the target market. What I referred to as the ME car vs the WE car. Because of the physical trade offs made to deliver a top performance vehicle off the Alpha platform, fixing the trade offs would require a significant modification to the architecture. Getting trunk space and sight lines more competitive with Challenger or Mustang would require serious metal bending. That would have to be a 7th Gen objective IF GM / Chevy / Reuss / Oppenheiser decide they want to broaden the market to include family practicality. I’ve seen no indication that this is something they are considering. It would have to be more like CTS / CT5 and less like ATS. A bigger car. A taller car. Maybe even a wider car. I don’t see that happening.

Mark was talking about making V8 an option in a package less pricey than a 1SS. Same target market, lower price point. And that even is not a slam dunk. Where will the buyers for the lower priced, let’s call it 0SS come from? If they could legitimately come from Mustang GT or Challenger 5.7L intenders that would be a go. But if it only provides an opportunity for customers who would have bought a 1SS to get a fast car for a lot less money (lower ATP) that would be a non-starter. Personally, I don’t know how that is likely to land, but I’m certain there are some really sharp people working on it.

Just for curiosity... The Malibu Platform can be good for the next Generation and a HP bump?

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

Just for curiosity... The Malibu Platform can be good for the next Generation and a HP bump?

That may work if they just go front wheel drive and drop the V8 , may even the playing field for Challenger and Mustang VS Camaro

[dperrone]

Originally Posted by JoeCamaro444

Camaro is fine and will be fine. It’s not going anywhere. Best performance bargain out there in the modern muscle car segment. It looks fantastic and performs on par with cars well out of its price range.

not that I disagree with you, but none of your points matter at all.

- best performer? yes

- looks fantastic? not so much anymore...

- competes with higher price point? yes

that's not what keeps a car around. its sales. when they ended the 4th gen it wasnt because they performance was doing bad. nobody was buying them