[Number 3]

Originally Posted by merlin803

Your not considering the other factors like the cost cutting that moving to a shared platform gives, not having the costs of producing thousands of "fleet" just cars to make a small margin....etc.

Do you have more profits from selling a hundred $1 widgets or selling seventy five at $1.50 and also having cost savings because you produced less widgets?

If it cost you $1.10 per widget in tooling and development cost........

Also your example suggests you would lose 25% of your sales if you raise the price 50%. I know you just made up numbers, but if you raised the price of the base Camaro to $40,000 and the 2SS to $75,000 you do much worse than a 25% loss in sales. The impact of pricing is much more fine than that.

Also pricing the Camaro higher only works well if everyone agrees you have increased the value ANNND increased that value in areas everyone finds appealing. For example if GM put a custom quality paint job including wet sanding between multiple coats on every Camaro you would quickly find how few people would value that $5,000 or more premium. You could claim all day you were selling a care with the best paint job, but if no one is willing to pay you for it, sales will suffer.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Number 3

If it cost you $1.10 per widget in tooling and development cost........

Also your example suggests you would lose 25% of your sales if you raise the price 50%. I know you just made up numbers, but if you raised the price of the base Camaro to $40,000 and the 2SS to $75,000 you do much worse than a 25% loss in sales. The impact of pricing is much more fine than that.

Also pricing the Camaro higher only works well if everyone agrees you have increased the value ANNND increased that value in areas everyone finds appealing. For example if GM put a custom quality paint job including wet sanding between multiple coats on every Camaro you would quickly find how few people would value that $5,000 or more premium. You could claim all day you were selling a care with the best paint job, but if no one is willing to pay you for it, sales will suffer.

I hear you, I was just pointing out that it is more complicated than just "Camaro's aren't selling more than Mustangs, so the new Camaro failed".

I am not arguing that their reported plan is the right one, just pointing out what they have said.

I would think that if they were not as profitable as they want to be with the Camaro that we would be seeing rebates and incentives.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by merlin803

I hear you, I was just pointing out that it is more complicated than just "Camaro's aren't selling more than Mustangs, so the new Camaro failed".

I am not arguing that their reported plan is the right one, just pointing out what they have said.

I would think that if they were not as profitable as they want to be with the Camaro that we would be seeing rebates and incentives.

I don't think anyone is saying that the current rate of Camaro's sales make it a failure, and if they are saying that, they're incorrect.

What some are illuding to is that having an all new model sell only at the same clip as the old models last few years is not as promising as would be appreciated by its developers.

GM doesn't have to sell more Camaros than Ford does Mustangs, but they should be looking to sell more than they have been. Its odd to see a car that is much better than its predecessor sell no better than that which it replaced.

[jp23rockstar]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I don't think anyone is saying that the current rate of Camaro's sales make it a failure, and if they are saying that, they're incorrect.

What some are illuding to is that having an all new model sell only at the same clip as the old models last few years is not as promising as would be appreciated by its developers.

GM doesn't have to sell more Camaros than Ford does Mustangs, but they should be looking to sell more than they have been. Its odd to see a car that is much better than its predecessor sell no better than that which it replaced.

It's a combination of similar looks, increase in price, and new Mustang on the market with a new design and lower price point. The only thing Camaro has going for it is performance. As you can see the general public doesn't care too much about performance.

[Number 3]

I don't think the Camaro sales are anywhere near failure. I also don't know what GM's planning volumes were for the Gen 6 Camaro. It just seems like typical GM, they've created a far superior car in almost every regard. But there ar some arguable deficiencies and the Mustang continues to outsell the newer and better performing Camaro. Is GM satisfied? Are they on plan?

[NASTY99Z28]

Unless you are brand loyal its hard to pass up a new GT for 5k less. If the camaro was priced within 2k of the stang it'd do much better.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by NASTY99Z28

Unless you are brand loyal its hard to pass up a new GT for 5k less. If the camaro was priced within 2k of the stang it'd do much better.

"Cheaper is better" to many people today...

[Masta T]

I feel like the camaro has become a white collar car now, it's not bad because it's a awesome road machine but..... It's harder for the average joe to get into one. And the gt mustang appeals more to joe because it's a cheaper v8.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

"Cheaper is better" to many people today...

Personally, I would have felt like I "settled" if I had gone with a Mustang, the Camaro is more but it is also better in virtually every category (except maybe visibility and interior space, which was way low on my priority list). If I was going to shell out $38,000+, it was worth a few more thousand for a much better car.

Will Ford up the stakes and upgrade the next Mustang to compete? If they do, you can bet that their prices are going up too and the people on the Ford forum's are going to be having these same discussions.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by merlin803

Personally, I would have felt like I "settled" if I had gone with a Mustang, the Camaro is more but it is also better in virtually every category (except maybe visibility and interior space, which was way low on my priority list). If I was going to shell out $38,000+, it was worth a few more thousand for a much better car.

Will Ford up the stakes and upgrade the next Mustang to compete? If they do, you can bet that their prices are going up too and the people on the Ford forum's are going to be having these same discussions.

That is quite possible. However historically Mustang has made very small MSRP increases even when performance is notably increased during an MCE.

1998 GT starts at $20,150
1999 GT starts at $20,945

2010 GT starts at $27,995
2011 GT starts at $30,495

2016 GT starts at $32,395

If we follow the increase % of '10 to '11 which involved a new engine, transmission, and sheet metal we get the following for the next MCE, which could bring performance inline with Camaro trim for trim... if Ford is even interested in that option.

2017 or 2018 GT could start at ~$35,501

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by merlin803

Personally, I would have felt like I "settled" if I had gone with a Mustang, the Camaro is more but it is also better in virtually every category (except maybe visibility and interior space, which was way low on my priority list). If I was going to shell out $38,000+, it was worth a few more thousand for a much better car.

Will Ford up the stakes and upgrade the next Mustang to compete? If they do, you can bet that their prices are going up too and the people on the Ford forum's are going to be having these same discussions.

Exactly! Ford upped the GT350 and they are selling 5k to 25k over MSRP. The Camaro is worth the price, why settle for less?

[laborsmith]

I wonder if plant build capacity has any relation to sales? I ask because several years ago I decided I would never again do a SRE order and spent over a week using on line sources as well as several trips to the dealership regarding dealer trade. Both I and the salesperson found several builds that met my specific wants. Either she or I called on each only to find all were either not at the listing dealership or were already sold. Not a single one was available whether I went to the listing dealer or for my salesperson to arrange a dealer trade.

That also was when I discovered how meaningful "In Transit" really is.

One way to learn if the Camaro is selling well or not would be if GM increased plant build capacity, say by adding another shift. I wonder if that is being considered?

Oops!

Laborsmith

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

No, I see your point.

But ATS and CTS aren't exactly flying off the shelf either.

That is where it gets interesting to me. Even though the Alpha spread out its design costs over 3 models, doesn't GM need the Camaro to be the volume model of the 3 alpha based cars?

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is where it gets interesting to me. Even though the Alpha spread out its design costs over 3 models, doesn't GM need the Camaro to be the volume model of the 3 alpha based cars?

Who knows? You see articles like this and it makes it seem like everything is going according to plan -

GM profits more than double on record N. America earnings

"The first-quarter profits came even though global sales fell 2.5 percent to 2.4 million vehicles. Stevens attributed the decline to lower sales in South America and a U.S. strategy to cut low-profit sales to rental car companies. But he said average prices per vehicle in North America improved, which he attributed to trucks and new products such as the Chevrolet Malibu and Camaro."

http://www.chron.com/news/article/GM...ca-7286886.php

As long as GM is profitable and happy, then I am good.