[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Is the Hellcat ohc or pr? Also...dodge isn't trying to stuff that engine in a low bay...much more room to have a larger super charger in that beast.

It's an OHV. I've seen talk that Dodge may axe the Viper altogether and make the Hellcats the halo car. I hate to see the Viper go, but think it would be a great move on their part due to the lackluster sales of the Viper.

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

Honestly, a 650 HP gen6 would more than make me happy especially with all the refinements it will have and Chevy's ability to dial in the suspension. I'm just a little weary of Chevy coming up short in the HP area.

I'm dreaming of a LT1 gen6 SS with mag ride, HUD and full connectivity. What an awesome daily driver that will be....

I feel the same way, but as the saying goes...someone else is always going to more...which is a good thing. Dodge and Ford may compete for the "most powerful muscle car" but all I want is which is the fastest off the showroom floor. And HP isn't necessarily the key to that.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by newb

That we know of... And that still goes back to the fact that throwing more power at a car doesn't always make it a success. The viper had far more power than the vette for how long? We know who wins that battle every time.

What battle? The Viper and Vette trade off who's faster all the time. The sales battle is different. The Viper would sell more if they had an entry level car. Imagine if GM sold only ZR1s.

No one is saying just throw power at the car but Dodge and Ford have shown they are willing to go all out when it comes to power. Why should we accept any less?

[newb]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

What battle? The Viper and Vette trade off who's faster all the time. The sales battle is different. The Viper would sell more if they had an entry level car. Imagine if GM sold only ZR1s.



No one is saying just throw power at the car but Dodge and Ford have shown they are willing to go all out when it comes to power. Why should we accept any less?

Because I have read countless articles that stated after driving a hellcat and getting the burnouts out of their system, they felt the Skat Pack was the better drivers car. That the hellcat was fun for a minute but it was (in my own words) just about bragging rights not actually enjoying driving your car.

I would rather see an "underpowered" 650 ish hp car that is a blast to drive over a 710 hp car that is overpowered.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newb

Because I have read countless articles that stated after driving a hellcat and getting the burnouts out of their system, they felt the Skat Pack was the better drivers car. That the hellcat was fun for a minute but it was (in my own words) just about bragging rights not actually enjoying driving your car.

I would rather see an "underpowered" 650 ish hp car that is a blast to drive over a 710 hp car that is overpowered.

Now that doesn't make since in regards to the Scat Pack. Every review I have read mentioned the actual SRT is the better driver's car due to better brakes and the adaptable suspension. The Scat Pack is without a doubt the best value for performance, but the frequent brake fade and harsh ride make it not the best choice for DD. Granted not everyone will be worried about the ride, but braking is a big problem for such a big car.

You seem to feel like I do, you want usable power...not a bench racing queen

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by newb

Because I have read countless articles that stated after driving a hellcat and getting the burnouts out of their system, they felt the Skat Pack was the better drivers car. That the hellcat was fun for a minute but it was (in my own words) just about bragging rights not actually enjoying driving your car.

I would rather see an "underpowered" 650 ish hp car that is a blast to drive over a 710 hp car that is overpowered.

That has to do with the limits of the platform. If Dodge had an appropriate platform to use with that kind of power, it would work. Being limited to 275 tires is what hurts the Hellcat.

Besides, you are ignoring Ford in all this. They have shown they can work with their platforms. They made the solid axle work pretty well. Do you honestly expect Ford to not do the appropriate chassis work for the power they want to make?

[newb]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

That has to do with the limits of the platform. If Dodge had an appropriate platform to use with that kind of power, it would work. Being limited to 275 tires is what hurts the Hellcat.



Besides, you are ignoring Ford in all this. They have shown they can work with their platforms. They made the solid axle work pretty well. Do you honestly expect Ford to not do the appropriate chassis work for the power they want to make?

To make 662 work in the Mustang they geared it so tall it was a fine line between a cloud of smoke and bogging the launch. I don't consider a car geared so tall that it almost doesn't feel like 662 hp much better. And yes I have ridden in one.

There is a reason why many forms of racing use less hp that what the hellcat provides. Traction limitations. Especially on a street tire, traction will always be an issue at the types of numbers. And if you tune at all to put that power down in a straight line, you generally will lose some agility.

[v8]

Yes but the 662 in the GT500 feels way faster than the ZL1, I know. Also with 662HP the car moves effortlessly and you don't have to push it to go, it just moves.

The gearing in the GT500 is what makes it feel so fast, you don't have to row through the gears.

Me personally I'll vote to take as much HP as I can. If I don't use it, it just means the engine will run cooler and better.

[v8]

[QUOTE=SuperSound;8366429]Completely agree. PR, bragging rights, and brand recognition. All good reasons to build cars like it. But they are low volume sellers and always will be. That's part of the reason they are special, few people will see one and even fewer own it.

That's 9k orders in 6 months. That's 13k Mustangs in one month alone. Twice the number of Challengers sold in the same month. Just goes to prove the point, people don't buy these cars for HP. They want the looks, features, and the value they offer. That's not to say it would not hurt sells if they put an anemic motor in them.



I agree, but what we have to look at is NO ONE but dodge took 9K orders in 6 months for a Halo car. Ford's 13K in one month is all the V6's, GT's, everything.

I think Ford sold about 5000 GT500's each year. The ZL was about 2000 in 2012, in 2013 it was about 9000, and they were sitting on lots as production was too much. For 2014 the ZL1 was just a few thousand.

Dodge can't keep up to demand and is not making 2015 Hellcats anymore. Existing orders are rolling in 2016's. Not ford or GM has had that problem where they can't build them fast enough. So HP does sell. I don't own a Hellcat and I'm a GM guy at heart. I do hear what you are saying about selling more in "total" But making a great halo car will bring great advertising to the rest of your line.

Maybe if GM would make a 750HP Camaro they would sell a ton? We don't know for sure because they did not make it. GM can think what they want, but they can't think consumers wouldn't want it, or its not that important because they never tried it so they don't know. The ZL1 sold fairly well for a 580HP car. Imagine if it was 750HP, would have sold a lot a more I'll bet.

I beg GM to try

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by v8

I agree, but what we have to look at is NO ONE but dodge took 9K orders in 6 months for a Halo car. Ford's 13K in one month is all the V6's, GT's, everything.

I think Ford sold about 5000 GT500's each year. The ZL was about 2000 in 2012, in 2013 it was about 9000, and they were sitting on lots as production was too much. For 2014 the ZL1 was just a few thousand.

Dodge can't keep up to demand and is not making 2015 Hellcats anymore. Existing orders are rolling in 2016's. Not ford or GM has had that problem where they can't build them fast enough. So HP does sell. I don't own a Hellcat and I'm a GM guy at heart. I do hear what you are saying about selling more in "total" But making a great halo car will bring great advertising to the rest of your line.

Maybe if GM would make a 750HP Camaro they would sell a ton? We don't know for sure because they did not make it. GM can think what they want, but they can't think consumers wouldn't want it, or its not that important because they never tried it so they don't know. The ZL1 sold fairly well for a 580HP car. Imagine if it was 750HP, would have sold a lot a more I'll bet.

I beg GM to try

9k orders is a long way from 9k produced and sold. How many of those orders will be cancelled when people are waiting 6+ months for a car? How many will cancel their orders when Ford puts the GT350 on sale or unveils the GT500? The car buyer that buys these kinds of cars is very fickle. The reports indicate most of the Mustangs being sold right now are Ecoboost and GTs, but that is not a fact either. So what is helping the Hellcat and Mustang sell well right now? Gas prices. The GT500 and ZL1 sales in the past were both during times where gas prices were higher than they are now. What we are seeing right now is one of the best times to build and sell cars like these. Summer is coming and gas is cheap. Ask yourself this, if HP sold why didn't the GT500 explode in sales when they announced 662HP? It definitely had high demand at launch and dealers were marking the car up a lot over MSRP, just like is happening with the Hellcat, but it doesn't last ever.

[Snakedriver]

The Hellcat has way more demand than the ZL1 or GT500 had. 9,000 orders and thousands more waiting on the sidelines for a MSRP or better deal, the car is sold out for the first 2 years. It's conservatively rated at 707HP it's more like 740-750HP according to dyno numbers. GM will have to do much better than 640HP and a 200LB weight loss. Your almost guaranteed to see a 2017 GT500 with 750HP. Hopefully GM has an answer.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by newb

To make 662 work in the Mustang they geared it so tall it was a fine line between a cloud of smoke and bogging the launch. I don't consider a car geared so tall that it almost doesn't feel like 662 hp much better. And yes I have ridden in one.

There is a reason why many forms of racing use less hp that what the hellcat provides. Traction limitations. Especially on a street tire, traction will always be an issue at the types of numbers. And if you tune at all to put that power down in a straight line, you generally will lose some agility.

They geared it that way to get to 60 in first gear. How fast it feels doesn't matter when it clearly is faster in the 1/4 mile and 0-60.

Racing classes have different regulations on power. What does that have to do with street cars?

[newb]

They geared it that way to avoid lawsuits and prevent the solid rear axle trying to lead the car.

[v8]

The geared it that way because the 3:73's in the GT would have been useless. The GT500 had too much power for 3:73's and the 3:31's worked best.

As Bhobbs said, one of the other reasons was to get to 60 in 1st gear. Thats how they get the 3.5s time. In addition, when going through the 1/4 you only need 3 gears, not 4 like the rest.

[v8]

Originally Posted by Snakedriver

The Hellcat has way more demand than the ZL1 or GT500 had. 9,000 orders and thousands more waiting on the sidelines for a MSRP or better deal, the car is sold out for the first 2 years. It's conservatively rated at 707HP it's more like 740-750HP according to dyno numbers. GM will have to do much better than 640HP and a 200LB weight loss. Your almost guaranteed to see a 2017 GT500 with 750HP. Hopefully GM has an answer.

+1