[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Doc

FWD has come a long way; I've been quite impressed with the performance of my 2016 Mazda 6. It doesn't have torque-steer like FWD used to have.

You have to have torque to have torque-steer Doc. Lol. 185lb-ft. Hold on!!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Doc

eh so what anymore... I don't know that the new generations would even care about that. As long as it looks great on the outside and inside, I think it would sell. Maybe this is the change that firmly moves the 'old days' into the new days. FWD has come a long way; I've been quite impressed with the performance of my 2016 Mazda 6. It doesn't have torque-steer like FWD used to have.

But it's still FWD. I don't dislike the quality, you're right they have come a very long way...I dislike the layout. RWD is better...more dynamic...higher performance capabilities. AWD more-so depending on the application.

If we're talking about creating a new, sporty car to draw in entry-level buyers...I'd like to see a Sonic SS...or perhaps something like this:


Start with a small turbo 4...keep the weight down...then within the decade, convert to a Volt powertrain, or full-electric with beefed up motors. It could be fun!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

But it's still FWD. I don't dislike the quality, you're right they have come a very long way...I dislike the layout. RWD is better...more dynamic...higher performance capabilities. AWD more-so depending on the application.

If we're talking about creating a new, sporty car to draw in entry-level buyers...I'd like to see a Sonic SS...or perhaps something like this:


Start with a small turbo 4...keep the weight down...then within the decade, convert to a Volt powertrain, or full-electric with beefed up motors. It could be fun!

Yes RWD is better for a higher performance driver, which you and I are, but honestly I think 80% of the customer base probably isn't. Their idea of higher performance is to just mash the pedal for a few gears in a straight line. A FWD layout can handle that nicely, especially with the terrific new 6+ speed auto transmissions they now have.

For the majority of the customer base, it just has to LOOK sporty. For those people like you, myself and probably most of the people on this forum, we want a real high performance car which is why we have Camaros. That could be the defining difference between the entry level pony car, and the Camaro; the engines and layout. Entry level is 4 cyl FWD, high performance level is V8 RWD, priced accordingly.

Just some ideas and thoughts on it all.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yes RWD is better for a higher performance driver, which you and I are, but honestly I think 80% of the customer base probably isn't. Their idea of higher performance is to just mash the pedal for a few gears in a straight line. A FWD layout can handle that nicely, especially with the terrific new 6+ speed auto transmissions they now have.

For the majority of the customer base, it just has to LOOK sporty. For those people like you, myself and probably most of the people on this forum, we want a real high performance car which is why we have Camaros. That could be the defining difference between the entry level pony car, and the Camaro; the engines and layout. Entry level is 4 cyl FWD, high performance level is V8 RWD, priced accordingly.

Just some ideas and thoughts on it all.

Gotcha.

In this, you and I agree 110%.

[Number 3]

FWD would not be a Pony car. If what you want is just "a coupe" then that's different. Yes, you could make a $22,000 Malibu coupe.........or Mazda 6 coupe. But there is a reason why there isn't an Altima coupe anymore or a Camry coupe (Solara) anymore. And that, Doc, is the problem.

Now if you want a Cruze coupe? Maybe a hatch version. But those aren't anything like what you were describing.

If you just a want a nice looking $20,000 mid-size coupe oh wait, it's $22,000 now based on Malibu and Mazda 6 pricing then that's just a why don't coupes sell discussion. And they don't.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

FWD would not be a Pony car. If what you want is just "a coupe" then that's different. Yes, you could make a $22,000 Malibu coupe.........or Mazda 6 coupe. But there is a reason why there isn't an Altima coupe anymore or a Camry coupe (Solara) anymore. And that, Doc, is the problem.

Now if you want a Cruze coupe? Maybe a hatch version. But those aren't anything like what you were describing.

If you just a want a nice looking $20,000 mid-size coupe oh wait, it's $22,000 now based on Malibu and Mazda 6 pricing then that's just a why don't coupes sell discussion. And they don't.

In the traditional definition of the term, a pony car is not FWD, true. However who's to say that the term couldn't be updated to reflect the changing times?

Part of the problem might just be the name of the car. Camry, Solara, Altima, etc. all sound like something your parents drive. Young entry-level buyers want something that doesn't sound like a car for old people, which I think was also some of the appeal of the original pony car, the Mustang. It had a great name. Cruze, Malibu, Impala... none of those sound exactly dynamic.

What if GM created a new kid in town? A modern pony car that looks like the classic definition; long hood, short rear deck, but with a FWD? The original pony cars weren't high performance, they just looked sporty. A new FWD version that looked great; looked like a high performance car, but at a much lower price, could be the next big thing. The big feature would be the body and interior style, just like the originals were.

Give it great name and a great look; might be worth a concept model to get an idea of the public's reaction.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Doc

In the traditional definition of the term, a pony car is not FWD, true. However who's to say that the term couldn't be updated to reflect the changing times?

Part of the problem might just be the name of the car. Camry, Solara, Altima, etc. all sound like something your parents drive. Young entry-level buyers want something that doesn't sound like a car for old people, which I think was also some of the appeal of the original pony car, the Mustang. It had a great name. Cruze, Malibu, Impala... none of those sound exactly dynamic.

What if GM created a new kid in town? A modern pony car that looks like the classic definition; long hood, short rear deck, but with a FWD? The original pony cars weren't high performance, they just looked sporty. A new FWD version that looked great; looked like a high performance car, but at a much lower price, could be the next big thing. The big feature would be the body and interior style, just like the originals were.

Give it great name and a great look; might be worth a concept model to get an idea of the public's reaction.

Because simply a $20,000 car with a few options is now $28,000 to $30,000 just like the Malibu and Mazda 6 are. Loaded those two both go into the low $30,000 range. And now you are competing with the Camaro L4 and V6 and stealing that volume. And stealing that volume in a coupe segment that no longer sells well is not a good business case.

GM could do it. For example they could bring the Cascada coupe over as a Buick and put the 2.0t under the hood. Sharp car. But that won't be anywhere near $20,000.

Coupes just don't sell. As I've said before GM had Norwood and Van Nuys building Camaros and Firebirds. Now it's simply a portion of LGR. People are buying SUVs and even sedan sales are dropping.

So could GM build a better mouse trap? I'm not sure they could create a segment RE defining coupe. That wouldn't hurt the volume of the less powerful Camaros. And you need that volume on the Camaro to keep the price of the Hi Performance Camaros from simply being a Corvette with a briefcase holder behind your seats. And without the 2.0 and 3.6 volumes on the Camaro the development money would dry up, the car would get refreshed less often, etc., etc.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Because simply a $20,000 car with a few options is now $28,000 to $30,000 just like the Malibu and Mazda 6 are. Loaded those two both go into the low $30,000 range. And now you are competing with the Camaro L4 and V6 and stealing that volume. And stealing that volume in a coupe segment that no longer sells well is not a good business case.

GM could do it. For example they could bring the Cascada coupe over as a Buick and put the 2.0t under the hood. Sharp car. But that won't be anywhere near $20,000.

Coupes just don't sell. As I've said before GM had Norwood and Van Nuys building Camaros and Firebirds. Now it's simply a portion of LGR. People are buying SUVs and even sedan sales are dropping.

So could GM build a better mouse trap? I'm not sure they could create a segment RE defining coupe. That wouldn't hurt the volume of the less powerful Camaros. And you need that volume on the Camaro to keep the price of the Hi Performance Camaros from simply being a Corvette with a briefcase holder behind your seats. And without the 2.0 and 3.6 volumes on the Camaro the development money would dry up, the car would get refreshed less often, etc., etc.

The price goes up on any car when you start adding options, that doesn't automatically mean you have to buy it that way. I didn't need the 'loaded' Mazda 6 when I bought mine, so I bought the $22k Sport model which had more than what I needed for a daily driver. I already have an SUV and of course my Camaro. There are probably a lot more people like me who might be looking for an additional vehicle that don't need one of the 'loaded' models because it isn't their only car. Entry-level buyers can't afford the loaded ones so they aren't the customer base for those models either.

The problem I see the Camaro starting to have, is it's becoming as you put it "a Corvette with a briefcase holder behind your seats". It's already more than the entry-level buyer can afford, and even though I could afford it, it was more than I needed to spend for what I needed as a third-car daily driver. So what happens to the Camaro looking forward? They could keep increasing the price each year until it's a Corvette with a briefcase holder behind the front seats, but that starts to seriously limit it's customer base. I want the Camaro to survive, which is why I'm trying to come up with a strategy to make that happen.

So redefine the Camaro to keep it viable. Start with a base model just like the Malibu, which could even be the Malibu with a different body and interior, call it simply the Camaro, and it has the 4 cyl with a 6 cyl upgrade. Starts at $22k for the 4, $25k for the 6. No RS, SS or any other letters; simply the Camaro. Move up from there to the high-performance lettered models. Those models are the SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28. They have the V8 and start at $35k for the SS and go up from there. All are Camaros so they all count as a Camaro sale. The base models would be the bigger sellers to keep the money flowing in to help support the development costs of the high-performance models.

This would provide a way to keep the Camaro as the car of choice for the next generation of buyers who want to drive something besides an SUV. It's just an idea but after seeing the Camaro price increases for 2017 I have to wonder what's going to happen for the 7th gen by the time it arrives, assuming there is one. Any ideas?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Doc

So redefine the Camaro to keep it viable. Start with a base model just like the Malibu, which could even be the Malibu with a different body and interior, call it simply the Camaro, and it has the 4 cyl with a 6 cyl upgrade. Starts at $22k for the 4, $25k for the 6. No RS, SS or any other letters; simply the Camaro. Move up from there to the high-performance lettered models. Those models are the SS, 1LE, ZL1, Z/28. They have the V8 and start at $35k for the SS and go up from there. All are Camaros so they all count as a Camaro sale. The base models would be the bigger sellers to keep the money flowing in to help support the development costs of the high-performance models.

This would provide a way to keep the Camaro as the car of choice for the next generation of buyers who want to drive something besides an SUV. It's just an idea but after seeing the Camaro price increases for 2017 I have to wonder what's going to happen for the 7th gen by the time it arrives, assuming there is one. Any ideas?

Hell no to the bolded part with all capital letters. This sounds like something the "old GM" would have done...and even they didn't do that.

The V8 will never be 35k again. Not until CAFE standards are repealed or changed/lowered.

They certainly could make a RWD Camaro for 22k. It would have nothing on the inside and be equipped with a 150hp four cylinder out of the Cruze. I can't imagine that selling very well at all no matter how cheap it is.

I think Number 3 has a good point in that coupes just don't sell like they used to. People see them as uniformly impractical, and want either four doors or a hatchback. Neither of those things are Camaro.

Sooo....if, instead...you move the Camaro upmarket, and charge for what you're offering (The base LT is still priced in line with all other entry-level cars in the segment...including the terribly slow FRS/86)...the car can still be profitable and survive...it'll just cater to a slightly different market.

In the meantime...add the sporty hatches and what have you for cheap.

I envision an alternate reality where the Corvette turns into a mid-engined American supercar and becomes significantly more expensive...while the Camaro fills its entry-level shoes...They're already so close in performance...

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Hell no to the bolded part with all capital letters. This sounds like something the "old GM" would have done...and even they didn't do that.

The V8 will never be 35k again. Not until CAFE standards are repealed or changed/lowered.

They certainly could make a RWD Camaro for 22k. It would have nothing on the inside and be equipped with a 150hp four cylinder out of the Cruze. I can't imagine that selling very well at all no matter how cheap it is.

I think Number 3 has a good point in that coupes just don't sell like they used to. People see them as uniformly impractical, and want either four doors or a hatchback. Neither of those things are Camaro.

Sooo....if, instead...you move the Camaro upmarket, and charge for what you're offering (The base LT is still priced in line with all other entry-level cars in the segment...including the terribly slow FRS/86)...the car can still be profitable and survive...it'll just cater to a slightly different market.

In the meantime...add the sporty hatches and what have you for cheap.

I envision an alternate reality where the Corvette turns into a mid-engined American supercar and becomes significantly more expensive...while the Camaro fills its entry-level shoes...They're already so close in performance...

Ok well, R.I.P. the Camaro as everyman's sporty car then. Nobody but me wants it apparently. Maybe with Trump as the next POTUS the economy will recover enough that more people can afford one. With the current unemployment rate at 29%, reducing that to increase the customer's who are working and can afford a new car could possibly help.

Your 'vision' of the next generation Corvette might become a reality, which is fine for an ever-aging customer base, but I wonder what happens when that base starts dying off. Will there be new generations to take their place? For some bizarre reason car companies (and even others) are falling all over themselves to eliminate our freedom to drive, and replace it with 'self-driving' cars so we don't 'hurt' ourselves with our freedoms. If that's going to be the future, I'm glad I probably won't be alive to see it.

[merlin803]

I think the base LT is what GM probably considers the "every man" sports car now, and honestly, if I look back at the "V8" variant of Camaro when I was growing up in the 80's and 90's, the current LT is a big leap forward in every way, IMHO.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Doc

Your 'vision' of the next generation Corvette might become a reality, which is fine for an ever-aging customer base, but I wonder what happens when that base starts dying off. Will there be new generations to take their place? For some bizarre reason car companies (and even others) are falling all over themselves to eliminate our freedom to drive, and replace it with 'self-driving' cars so we don't 'hurt' ourselves with our freedoms. If that's going to be the future, I'm glad I probably won't be alive to see it.

It's a sad reality that more people are into gadgets and gimmicky features than they are into hot-rodding these days. Those people will grow up, and likely not change their tastes much...And by that time, electric cars will likely become mainstream and none of this will matter...

As far as autonomous cars....the bizarre reason is sci-fi and the new crop of buyers who want those gadgets. It's veiled in "safety"...and that may be true...but as long as there's a "off" button, I'm okay with it.

[AZCamaroFan]

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

It's a sad reality that more people are into gadgets and gimmicky features than they are into hot-rodding these days. Those people will grow up, and likely not change their tastes much...And by that time, electric cars will likely become mainstream and none of this will matter...

As far as autonomous cars....the bizarre reason is sci-fi and the new crop of buyers who want those gadgets. It's veiled in "safety"...and that may be true...but as long as there's a "off" button, I'm okay with it.

You're probably right. I can imagine electric cars taking over much like plastic bags became the 'responsible' way to bag things, until they started creating more problems than they solved. Now it's back to 'recyclable' paper bags.

We haven't seen what the long-term problems are going to be for electric cars, but no doubt we will... eventually.

One thing about control freaks; they NEVER want you to have an "off" button. You can be sure once they can, they will 'take over' the roadways, and to "punish" the evil people who dare defy them by wanting to drive their own cars, they'll have to pay a heavy road tax! How dare they!

I can see it now: auto-driving 'awareness' concerts, media and movies featuring how evil and dangerous it is to allow people to drive themselves; especially old white people with their antiquated privilege. Saving the planet from climate change by allowing the government to take over your privilege to drive yourself will be presented as 'current' and 'modern'; anybody who says otherwise is ignorant and a luddite. One day the only place you'll see self-driving cars is in museums or the occasional parade, or out in remote areas where the self-driving ones aren't available. What you want to bet one of the sales pitches will be how 'affordable' this solution is for the 'poor' who can't afford a new car anymore? Ever-increasing prices has a dark side to it.

Once you let control-freaks take over, there's never an "off" button. I count myself incredibly fortunate to have been born and live during a time when individuals had freedom and liberty. For me, in a real sense, Camaros symbolize that. Thank you GM for creating such a wonderful car; long may it live!