[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Very interesting read here. I just think it's a sign of the times. When trucks are pushing over 60grand, what do you expect. Performance vehicles aren't going to be cheap either. It's getting out of hand just like everything else. Incomes for middle class folks have been going down for a very long time while vehicle prices have soared. Unfortunately less and less people will be able to buy these types of vehilces. I think GM sees this and is more interested in a higher margin on a lower volume car than large volumes. I would love to know what the actual profit is on a new 60k truck or an 2SS Camaro.

Agreed, which is why Honda will probably sell 400,000 Civics this year. For $22-23k you can get a nice commuter car with more advanced tech then most high end sports sedans.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed, which is why Honda will probably sell 400,000 Civics this year. For $22-23k you can get a nice commuter car with more advanced tech then most high end sports sedans.

What kind of "advanced tech" exactly are you talking about? I used to sell Honda's and they've never really offered anything extra beyond what other cars in ther class offered.

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Agreed, which is why Honda will probably sell 400,000 Civics this year. For $22-23k you can get a nice commuter car with more advanced tech then most high end sports sedans.

And the people that want an advanced performance car will buy the Camaro. There may be more people buying the commuter, but I'd rather have a car that makes the commute fun, even if it's not the cheapest.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by That_old_guy

Doc, I couldn't agree more! Back toward the end of 2015 my 1994 camaro died....may it rest in piece lol, and I was able to get into a 2015 v6 camaro. Base model, affordable and I loved it. Fast forward to last month...



Yes it was totaled

And now that pretty much all the 2015 camaros in my price range are sold and there is no entry level camaro anymore I went from being able to afford a camaro and being happy to having to settle for something else. That something else is my first ever none camaro, a jetta sport, only two things wrong with it are: 1) its not a camaro 2) no go fast component . Other than those is a great car, but as my wife says i bleed camaro. Now i'm just counting the days until I can trade it in for a camaro again.

Man I'm sorry this happened to you. Hopefully you'll find a deal on another Camaro soon.

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

people post for 5 years "will the next gen lose weight?" "i sure hope performance continues to improve"
new camaro comes out 2 inches shorter...
'i want the camaro to be bigger"

Well that's the thing; they didn't ask for it to be smaller, just lose weight. It looks like the Camaro team took a good look at what 5th gen owners were doing to their cars, and built that into the 6th gen, plus a lot more. That's great for what the car has become now, but it's now moving (moved) out of range of the entry-level/average buyer, which is the customer base it used to have.

Originally Posted by at7000ft

Steve - I am also old and sold a C6 vette last year that didn't make me feel old but my friends and family told me I looked older in it. Am about to order a 17 2SS just like yours +mrc, should make me feel young again (maybe).

Concerning the entry-level Camero thing, I think people's expectations have exceeded their bank accounts. No auto maker dares releasing a new car model of any kind without bluetooth, usb, auto-diming, voice recognition, puddle lights, etc. etc. Computers get smaller, lighter, faster and cheaper all at the same time, doesn't work that way with vehicles. People expect performance vehicles today to have most all the luxury items that a top of the line Mercedes has. A stock 65 GTO had (other than the big engine and heavier springs) almost nothing more option-wise than a 66 Tempest.

There's certainly some truth to what you've stated, but to quote a famous quote: "People don't know what they want until we show it to them". We're now in the selfie/"look at me" generation where looks are everything. If the car looks great on the outside and inside, that matters a lot. That's a design challenge; not a cost challenge. The 'must-have' items you listed are pretty much on most cars now. My new 2016 Mazda 6 has all that and it was $22k.

Originally Posted by motorhead

Very interesting read here. I just think it's a sign of the times. When trucks are pushing over 60grand, what do you expect. Performance vehicles aren't going to be cheap either. It's getting out of hand just like everything else. Incomes for middle class folks have been going down for a very long time while vehicle prices have soared. Unfortunately less and less people will be able to buy these types of vehilces. I think GM sees this and is more interested in a higher margin on a lower volume car than large volumes. I would love to know what the actual profit is on a new 60k truck or an 2SS Camaro.

Good points, but when I look ahead, I wonder where this is all going? The majority of buyers are at the lower price points. The next generation of GM customers need to be brought in for the long-term survival of the company. Unless GM plans on become a specialty car builder that just caters to the upper income market, they have to do something.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

What kind of "advanced tech" exactly are you talking about? I used to sell Honda's and they've never really offered anything extra beyond what other cars in ther class offered.

I am not talking raw performance or comparing a Civic to a Camaro but take a look at the 16 Civic tech you can get in a 20k car. Lane Watch including a camera in the side mirror that shows up on the 7 inch display. Not only does it have lane departure warning but it will steer the car and keep it in the lane for you. It has the rear camera with the grid lines, rear cross traffic detection for those busy parking lots.

It has brake hold so you can take you foot off the brake when sitting at long lights. Once you step on the gas it automatically releases. It has the electric parking brake just like the new Camaro. It has adaptive cruise control with low speed follow for dealing with stop and go traffic. It has collision avoidance. You make a bad choice and look down for your text message and don't see the cars stop in front of you then car will stop itself. It also has Apple CarPlay and Android Auto so that text could pop up on the display.

The have a new 1.5l turbo that 30-40mpg and does 0-60 in 6.6 seconds. My point is that you don't have to spend $50k for this tech, it exists for 22k if that is what you are after.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by nvrsatisfied

And the people that want an advanced performance car will buy the Camaro. There may be more people buying the commuter, but I'd rather have a car that makes the commute fun, even if it's not the cheapest.

No doubt. Not comparing the performance, just the fact that you can get a lot of the latest tech in a car without spending 45-50k. Obviously, the civic does not provide the same type of driving experience but would probably make a good 2nd car or winter warrior.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Doc

A lot of people don't want to be pinned against the door in a turn; they just want to look like they can. If the price just keeps going up by $500 every year, the customer base is going to keep dwindling; not a good situation.

Performance-wise, the 6th gen is the best Camaro ever made... period. For the performance enthusiast it's a fantastic deal. If you go by the old 80/20 rule then 20% of the customer base wants and will use that performance, while 80% doesn't particularly care and wouldn't use it anyways. That same 80% likes the way it looks and wants to feel and look like they use that kind of performance, however their wants and needs are more around what Number 3 is talking about; interior use and comfort.

I don't see any good reason why GM can't rethink the Camaro and design the next generation as a base chassis/platform with a great looking body and interior, that can have high-performance components added (by them) for the lettered models; SS, 1LE, ZL1, etc. Those components would be engine (only the lettered models get the V8), drivetrain/diff, shocks/bushings, brakes, tuning. Have a base model without the performance extras that has regular parts from the parts bin to keep the base models down in price. These models have a 4 or 6 cyl engine. The exterior and interior look great, just like the high-performance models. Have a few base colors; black, white, red, blue, silver, metallic gray. The high-performance models get optional bright colors; killer orange, yellow, blue, red.

Pricing; the base model would be great if it can come in around $22k; lower would be better but $22k would still work fine. The lettered models could start at $38k-ish and the big price difference allows the better performance components. The customer who is buying the current 6th gen would be the same one wanting the high-performance models. They have the money, they want and will use that kind of performance.

To me this would be a good way to expand the range of customers that can and will buy a Camaro, so that even entry level buyers can afford to join the fun. They aren't performance drivers and aren't going to drive like that, but they'll look like they belong to that crowd. The real performance drivers will have the lettered models with the extras on it that says "yep, this goes like it looks" and they will most likely use it that way.

GM has to do something different than what they're doing now. If by 2020 when the new Mustang rolls out, the 6th gen just costs another $1,500 than it currently does, Ford could really steal the show with a new, affordable pony car Mustang. Even Mazda could get in the game. In fact they may be doing it sooner than 2020.

This is supposed to be basically what the new 2017 Mazda 6 is going to look like next year:
Attachment 792658
Attachment 792659

Obviously the mirrors will have to be different but style-wise it's pretty impressive. I bought a 2016 Mazda 6 Sport last October for $22k as a daily driver to replace my aging Toyota. My commute is all stop-and-go street driving and I'm getting 29.7 mpg. It has 184 hp with a 6-speed auto trans. It's nowhere near my Camaro in performance, but it's quiet, comfortable, has a MUCH better interior with 4 usable seats, and the performance is surprisingly good. If Mazda can do that for $22k, why can't GM?

As for performance, the rumors are serious that there's going to be a 2-door version of the new Mazda 6 labelled the MX6 and it will have 320 hp. I expect that car would be closer to $30k, but things are getting interesting style-wise.

I'm not complaining about the 6th gen Camaro; it's a beautiful, fantastic car worth every penny if you're looking for that kind of performance. I'm complaining about GM's strategy to keep the Camaro alive long-term. Ever-increasing prices (even if it's worth the price) isn't going to work.

FWD Malibu contender. Nothing to see here.................move along.


Oh and GM has done it with the new Malibu. Awesome interior, great space now including the rear seat. Getting pretty solid reviews. Annnnnnnd $21,625.

[Rosco]

I golf several times a week....my driver rides shotgun!

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Rosco

I golf several times a week....my driver rides shotgun!

That is an option.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

FWD Malibu contender. Nothing to see here.................move along.


Oh and GM has done it with the new Malibu. Awesome interior, great space now including the rear seat. Getting pretty solid reviews. Annnnnnnd $21,625.

Great! I knew they could do it. Take that body off, and put a great looking pony car body on it. Same price.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Doc

Great! I knew they could do it. Take that body off, and put a great looking pony car body on it. Same price.

And FWD...

[nvrsatisfied]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

No doubt. Not comparing the performance, just the fact that you can get a lot of the latest tech in a car without spending 45-50k. Obviously, the civic does not provide the same type of driving experience but would probably make a good 2nd car or winter warrior.

I've had several Honda vehicles. the tech they come with is overshadowed by the vigorous shaking in the CVT transmission. My best 2nd car is my Subaru, it's an all around fun/dependable ride.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by nvrsatisfied

I've had several Honda vehicles. the tech they come with is overshadowed by the vigorous shaking in the CVT transmission. My best 2nd car is my Subaru, it's an all around fun/dependable ride.

Agreed on the CVT issues in the last generations on Honda and Nissan vehicles, however it looks like they have figured it out. No complaints on the new CVTs anymore and they simulate gear shifts if you want.

Subies are cool, was looking at a WRX but just can't get used to the power band compared to a NA V8. I feel it just fall on its face after 5000 rpm.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

And FWD...

eh so what anymore... I don't know that the new generations would even care about that. As long as it looks great on the outside and inside, I think it would sell. Maybe this is the change that firmly moves the 'old days' into the new days. FWD has come a long way; I've been quite impressed with the performance of my 2016 Mazda 6. It doesn't have torque-steer like FWD used to have.