[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I agree but somehow, some people think we’d have a better Camaro if it wasn’t held back by Corvette and Cadillac. The results show the Camaro team built an excellent car at all levels.

No one isn't saying the Camaro isn't good. We're saying it could be even better if GM actually allowed competition.

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I agree but somehow, some people think we’d have a better Camaro if it wasn’t “held back” by Corvette and Cadillac. The results show the Camaro team built an excellent car at all levels. They are not being “held back”.

The problem isn't the lap times obviously. The problem is that the ZL1 is billed as a street-strip-track triple threat, but it only succeeds at the track. The Hellcat has always been a driver's race on the street, and on the strip, it's a little more in their favor (unless we're counting the 85k Demon, but that's not the target). On top of that, the Trinity GT500s are still nipping at ZL1 heels, and a new one is on its way.

Simple solution, just put the damn LT5 in the ZL1 asap. It already has the cooling and the space underhood.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I agree but somehow, some people think we’d have a better Camaro if it wasn’t “held back” by Corvette and Cadillac. The results show the Camaro team built an excellent car at all levels. They are not being “held back”.

I agree it could be better, they could have put the LS9 in the 5th gen ZL1, chose not to. They could put the LT5 in the ZL1 but most likely won't. But that's not where my beef is lol.

Mine is that people seem to think now that Camaro is no longer "held back" that they can do whatever they want when that is not the case. They are still tied to what ever engine sits in the Corvette. And some of those don't see why they have to look to corvette lol.

[Blazin383]

Originally Posted by doc7000

Actually there is likely a difference in power due to a more restrictive exhaust system and/or intake system to put the engine into the Camaro compared to the Corvette. Remember the Corvette without the performance exhaust only makes 455/460 and with the performance exhaust makes 460/465.

Don’t forget, the advertised Hp/tq numbers are based on engine dyno ratings, not hp/tq at the wheels and as far as I know they don’t run the engine dyno through the full factory exhaust. I could be wrong, but I’d bet a weeks pay there isn’t anything different about the Corvette engine to give it the extra 5 hp as advertised. Once in the car, a less restrictive exhaust could make the difference, but there have been several independent dyno tests putting a Camaro on the same dyno and the same day with a Vette, and in some cases the Camaro made even more power than the Vette.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

The problem isn't the lap times obviously. The problem is that the ZL1 is billed as a street-strip-track triple threat, but it only succeeds at the track. The Hellcat has always been a driver's race on the street, and on the strip, it's a little more in their favor (unless we're counting the 85k Demon, but that's not the target). On top of that, the Trinity GT500s are still nipping at ZL1 heels, and a new one is on its way.

Simple solution, just put the damn LT5 in the ZL1 asap. It already has the cooling and the space underhood.

For straight line performance, Chevy matched or beat the Hellcat and GT500. Similar to what Ford did by setting the old Z/28 as the goal for the GT350R. The ZL1 is at an entirely different level in braking and on a road course. That is Chevy's thing.

I'm not a fan of the 1.7L supercharger and wouldn't buy a ZL1 because of it. The LT5 didn't exist when this car was developed. Not in Corvette either so saying it should have had a nonexistent engine makes no sense.

ZL1 A10
¼ mile: 11.5 sec @ 125.0 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 96 ft
Figure eight: 23.1 sec @0.91 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-test-brute-squad-goals/

ZL1 M6
¼ mile: 11.8 sec @ 123.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 97 ft
Figure eight: 23.2 sec @0.89 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/...gt350r-review/

Hellcat A8
¼ mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 109 ft
Figure eight: 24.7 sec @0.85 g (avg)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2015/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-first-test/

2013 GT500
¼ mile: 11.6 sec @ 125.7 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 101 ft
Figure eight: 24.2 sec @0.80 g (avg)
Cost: $64,770 (2013)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-first-test/

HellcatM6
Standing ¼ mile: 11.9 sec @ 124 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 154 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-manual-test-review

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I agree it could be better, they could have put the LS9 in the 5th gen ZL1, chose not to. They could put the LT5 in the ZL1 but most likely won't. But that's not where my beef is lol.

Mine is that people seem to think now that Camaro is no longer "held back" that they can do whatever they want when that is not the case. They are still tied to what ever engine sits in the Corvette. And some of those don't see why they have to look to corvette lol.

Could that ZL1 design team afford the LS9? Could Chevy produce it in the volumes the 12-15 ZL1 was built? The ZL1 was developed in ???2010??? does Camaro team have a loser leash now? Time will tell.

My only point is that given the parts available in the bin (engines and platform) and what they could do on their own, these Camaros are 100% effort. Nothing left on the table.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

For straight line performance, Chevy matched or beat the Hellcat and GT500. Similar to what Ford did by setting the old Z/28 as the goal for the GT350R. The ZL1 is at an entirely different level in braking and on a road course. That is Chevy's thing.

I'm not a fan of the 1.7L supercharger and wouldn't buy a ZL1 because of it. The LT5 didn't exist when this car was developed. Not in Corvette either so saying it should have had a nonexistent engine makes no sense.

ZL1 A10
¼ mile: 11.5 sec @ 125.0 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 96 ft
Figure eight: 23.1 sec @0.91 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-test-brute-squad-goals/

ZL1 M6
¼ mile: 11.8 sec @ 123.9 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 97 ft
Figure eight: 23.2 sec @0.89 g (avg)
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

Hellcat A8
¼ mile: 11.7 sec @ 125.4 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 109 ft
Figure eight: 24.7 sec @0.85 g (avg)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2015/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-first-test/

2013 GT500
¼ mile: 11.6 sec @ 125.7 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 101 ft
Figure eight: 24.2 sec @0.80 g (avg)
Cost: $64,770 (2013)

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/shelby-gt500/2013/2013-ford-shelby-gt500-first-test/

HellcatM6
Standing ¼ mile: 11.9 sec @ 124 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 154 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-manual-test-review

And that is exactly what people like Bhobbs are saying. It could have been even better but because that small blower was required for the Corvette, ZL1 and CTS-V had to use it as well. I think others are also mad/irked by the fact that Mustang will get unique engines are Camaro has to stand by with what ever Corvette is offering.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Could that ZL1 design team afford the LS9? Could Chevy produce it in the volumes the 12-15 ZL1 was built? The ZL1 was developed in ???2010??? does Camaro team have a loser leash now? Time will tell.

My only point is that given the parts available in the bin (engines and platform) and what they could do on their own, these Camaros are 100% effort. Nothing left on the table.

Maybe they could have, maybe they couldn't. We will never know.

And I agree they are giving 100% with what is available.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

And that is exactly what people like Bhobbs are saying. It could have been even better but because that small blower was required for the Corvette, ZL1 and CTS-V had to use it as well. I think others are also mad/irked by the fact that Mustang will get unique engines are Camaro has to stand by with what ever Corvette is offering.

Could have been better with what? The ZL1 was testing the summer of 2015. The LS9 was gone and the LT5 didn't exist.

I know people like Bhobbs want the Camaro team to be able to develop its own engines but that's not going to happen. Camaro shares with Corvette and Cadillac and until the release of the ZR1, Camaro utilized every part available in the Corvette plus the A10. All levels of Camaro outperform everything in their class and embarrass some fine cars from Germany. Seems to me that are doing pretty good.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Maybe they could have, maybe they couldn't. We will never know.

And I agree they are giving 100% with what is available.

And for the record. gen6 Mustang is a huge fail in the performance arena..to date

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Could have been better with what? The ZL1 was testing the summer of 2015. The LS9 was gone and the LT5 didn't exist.

I know people like Bhobbs want the Camaro team to be able to develop its own engines but that's not going to happen. Camaro shares with Corvette and Cadillac and until the release of the ZR1, Camaro utilized every part available in the Corvette plus the A10. All levels of Camaro outperform everything in their class and embarrass some fine cars from Germany. Seems to me that are doing pretty good.

So why does everyone keep saying the Camaro is not longer held down by the Corvette?

You can’t say the Camaro isn’t held down by the Corvette and also say the Camaro will never get its own engines.

[Martinjlm]

When it comes to taking the leash off of the Camaro, Al O. is totally correct. But that doesn't mean that he or anybody has a blank check with respect to the engine. The Small Block Team is going to continue to improve the Small Block, regardless of RPO code. To Al's point, I seriously doubt that anyone, even Tadge, will say "but you can't use this one until Corvette uses it"

More to Al's point, though, the engine and printed hp numbers are not the only things that make a Camaro a top performer. Al didn't have to ask Corvette if he could use Brembo 6-piston brakes. He didn't have to ask Corvette if he could design different spoilers for ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. He didn't have to ask Corvette if he could use stickier tires than Corvette on some models. He gets to equip the car to the best of his and his team's abilities.

The fact that LT1 in Corvette is rated higher than Camaro is, as someone has already stated, more due to exhaust restriction than anything else. They are essentially the same motor. Whereas in the past, there was a tendency to not allow the "newest" motor in the Camaro until Corvette had it first, I'd say nowadays it is a function of when is the engine available and which vehicle has a refresh cycle that fits the timing to introduce the new motor. LT1 was definitely developed with C7 in mind, but also knowing that Gen 6 was coming a couple years later. Had LT1 not been ready until 2016, I think it would have still went into Camaro and got added to Corvette at the best possible time.

With respect to the guys in Dearborn and the guys in Auburn Hills, (and the guys in Stuttgart and Zuffenhausen) both the Corvette and Camaro teams are less concerned about hp numbers than they are around demonstrable performance metrics.

[Martinjlm]

I should also note that the idea of '19 Silverado signaling content changes that could show up in '19 Camaro....the biggest change for Silverado is Dynamic Fuel Management replacing Active Fuel Management. Given how much some of the folks here love (spelled l-o-a-t-h-e) AFM, be careful what you ask for.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Could have been better with what? The ZL1 was testing the summer of 2015. The LS9 was gone and the LT5 didn't exist.

I know people like Bhobbs want the Camaro team to be able to develop its own engines but that's not going to happen. Camaro shares with Corvette and Cadillac and until the release of the ZR1, Camaro utilized every part available in the Corvette plus the A10. All levels of Camaro outperform everything in their class and embarrass some fine cars from Germany. Seems to me that are doing pretty good.

Yes they are, I am not denying that lol. They could have used a different blower on the LT4 for the ZL1 and CTS-V. You yourself even said you wouldn't buy a ZL1 because of the tiny blower. DOn't you wonder what they could do if they could have a bit more input on the engine?

Originally Posted by hotlap

And for the record. gen6 Mustang is a huge fail in the performance arena..to date

Getting a little salty there? Why bring the S550 into this when we are talking about Corvette tech trickling down to Camaro. Only mention of Mustang's was that GM chose not to respond in the previous gen?

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So why does everyone keep saying the Camaro is not longer held down by the Corvette?

You can’t say the Camaro isn’t held down by the Corvette and also say the Camaro will never get its own engines.

I wouldn't say it's held back, maybe I just think people need to realize that unless the LT1 gets updated for both, its not going to happen for just one of them.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When it comes to taking the leash off of the Camaro, Al O. is totally correct. But that doesn't mean that he or anybody has a blank check with respect to the engine. The Small Block Team is going to continue to improve the Small Block, regardless of RPO code. To Al's point, I seriously doubt that anyone, even Tadge, will say "but you can't use this one until Corvette uses it"

More to Al's point, though, the engine and printed hp numbers are not the only things that make a Camaro a top performer. Al didn't have to ask Corvette if he could use Brembo 6-piston brakes. He didn't have to ask Corvette if he could design different spoilers for ZL1 and ZL1 1LE. He didn't have to ask Corvette if he could use stickier tires than Corvette on some models. He gets to equip the car to the best of his and his team's abilities.

The fact that LT1 in Corvette is rated higher than Camaro is, as someone has already stated, more due to exhaust restriction than anything else. They are essentially the same motor. Whereas in the past, there was a tendency to not allow the "newest" motor in the Camaro until Corvette had it first, I'd say nowadays it is a function of when is the engine available and which vehicle has a refresh cycle that fits the timing to introduce the new motor. LT1 was definitely developed with C7 in mind, but also knowing that Gen 6 was coming a couple years later. Had LT1 not been ready until 2016, I think it would have still went into Camaro and got added to Corvette at the best possible time.

With respect to the guys in Dearborn and the guys in Auburn Hills, (and the guys in Stuttgart and Zuffenhausen) both the Corvette and Camaro teams are less concerned about hp numbers than they are around demonstrable performance metrics.

While they may not say you can't use this engine until Corvette does, almost every new small block that is performance oriented has debuted in the corvette(Exception is the LSA)

LS1 Vette, LS2 Vette, LS3 Vette LS7 Vette, LT1 Vette, LT4 Vette. If you were to bet on a new revised LT1 ala LT2 coming soon it's most likely going to show up in the Corvette first.