[GearheadSS]

I don't know who wrote that article, but I know that I don't like them.

[Petrol Head]

No one in the market for a Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is even considering those cars, and vice versa. You don’t test drive a Civic SI and go “hmm I wonder how this compares to a Camaro”

[ssrs2lt]

Truth^

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

LOL -"The BRZ is incredibly fast with its 2.0-liter flat-four-cylinder engine, capable of going 0 to 60 in a mere 6.2 seconds."

Hey! It's almost as fast as a Camry or an Altima, and it beats the Accord!

Get a V6 Camry or 2.0T Accord, and BRZ will lose to them.

Having driven an RX-8 before, you can say those cars are fun(it is!), but just don't say they are fast stock.

Originally Posted by foshjowler

Of course most people here aren't going to agree with this list, look at the forum you're on. Also, some of these comments are why I, and many others, hate muscle car people. Everyone has different wants and needs out of their car purchase, and each of these fills those in better than the others for someone. Otherwise these cars wouldn't be for sale. The Camaro is not the end-all-be-all for sporty cars.

The beef most people have with the article is that those are not cars that people usually cross-shop with a Camaro, with the possible exception of the 370Z, which some may cross-shop with a V6 Camaro.

Apples and oranges comparisons work if they are self-aware of the nature of the comparison. Throttle House made a video on a Mustang GT vs. Civic Type R comparison that was entertaining to watch, and Kia had an ad that compares the Forte to an Aventador that was also funny. This article clearly isn't, though.

It's not just a "muscle car guy" problem. Go swap one of those cars out with a pony (e.g. " 10 cars We'd Take over the BRZ", and put Camaro in the list), I bet you will see similar reactions.

Most of those are hot hatches and small roadsters. While I like those small roadsters, I wouldn't own one in North America given the number of pick-up trucks on the road and in my personal experience, 90% of them drive like they are compensating for something(company trucks are obviously exceptions). Nope, I don't want to be in a Miata/124 when one of those idiots change lane into me(which almost happened once when I had my RX-8).



Sent from toaster or something

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Get a V6 Camry or 2.0T Accord, and BRZ will lose to them.


Sent from toaster or something

2020 Camry has a 0-60 of 5.8 vs the BRZ of 6.2.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyo...t-test-review/

2018 Accord 2.0T has a 0-60 of 5.7.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/hond...rd-first-test/

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

2020 Camry has a 0-60 of 5.8 vs the BRZ of 6.2.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toyo...t-test-review/

2018 Accord 2.0T has a 0-60 of 5.7.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/hond...rd-first-test/

Most, if not all mid-size Sedans with the higher-performance engine option will beat a BRZ. IMO it really needs a turbo/supercharger in North America to be relevant. It doesn't even need that much boost since it's not that heavy, just enough to give it some low-end umph and that should solve the problem. There are rumours that the next gen will get a 2.4 engine, which might help as well.

I actually priced out a Camaro 2LT 1LE w/2.0T in Canada to be the same price as a GT 86. That's kinda messed up. In the US, though, the Camaro 2LT 1LE w/2.0T will be like a grands or two more than the GT 86.

The list would be a lot more convincing if it features something like lightly used C7 and some German performance cars(M4, Cayman, etc.). At least that's a cross-shopping combination I can see happen. I personally went through cross-shopping used C7 and a new SS 1LE. Got the rare chance of being able to have both, though I can't say I really like the circumstance of why that happened. RIP C7...

[DIYguy]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

It's not just a "muscle car guy" problem. Go swap one of those cars out with a pony (e.g. " 10 cars We'd Take over the BRZ", and put Camaro in the list), I bet you will see similar reactions.

That is actually a good point.
My impression of articles like that is that they are little more than click bait.

The article is comparing traditional "muscle cars" to today's breed of cars.
Many family cars nowadays can outperform the classic muscle cars that people pay six figures for at auctions (a few of which I have actually owned).

People who would read that article and say "oh yes, sign me up!" for the most part probably would never have considered a Camaro in the first place.
And vice-versa.

I would not want any of them personally.
They are not "bad", simply not what I was looking for.
Just my opinion.

[foshjowler]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The beef most people have with the article is that those are not cars that people usually cross-shop with a Camaro, with the possible exception of the 370Z, which some may cross-shop with a V6 Camaro.

Apples and oranges comparisons work if they are self-aware of the nature of the comparison. Throttle House made a video on a Mustang GT vs. Civic Type R comparison that was entertaining to watch, and Kia had an ad that compares the Forte to an Aventador that was also funny. This article clearly isn't, though.

It's not just a "muscle car guy" problem. Go swap one of those cars out with a pony (e.g. " 10 cars We'd Take over the BRZ", and put Camaro in the list), I bet you will see similar reactions.

Most of those are hot hatches and small roadsters. While I like those small roadsters, I wouldn't own one in North America given the number of pick-up trucks on the road and in my personal experience, 90% of them drive like they are compensating for something(company trucks are obviously exceptions). Nope, I don't want to be in a Miata/124 when one of those idiots change lane into me(which almost happened once when I had my RX-8).

Sent from toaster or something

Most of the cars on the list compete pretty directly with with the 2.0T and V6 Camaro/Mustang. The Civic Type R might be the only one I can see someone cross shopping with an SS/GT. It puts up some serious lap times, and is in the same neighborhood for price.

I considered many of these cars as options before buying my car. There's a reason I picked the Camaro over them, but I'm also not going dismiss the others as garbage because I believe the Camaro to be the best option for what I wanted out of a car.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

Most of the cars on the list compete pretty directly with with the 2.0T and V6 Camaro/Mustang. The Civic Type R might be the only one I can see someone cross shopping with an SS/GT. It puts up some serious lap times, and is in the same neighborhood for price.

I considered many of these cars as options before buying my car. There's a reason I picked the Camaro over them, but I'm also not going dismiss the others as garbage because I believe the Camaro to be the best option for what I wanted out of a car.

I disagree that most of them even compare to non-V8 ponies. As someone mentioned, even the 2.0T/V6 Camaro is capable of smoking most of them in a straight line while still capable of decent handling. You have to be smoking something when you say "yo a BRZ is fast". Again, I don't think a lot of people cross-shop even between a Civic Si and a Camaro 2.0T. Different focuses and appeals.

And I seriously want to see someone who actually cross-shops a Camaro SS/Mustang GT with a Civic Type R. The look of Civic Type R alone turns me(and anyone who's reasonably mature) off massively. Fake vents and massive wing(yes I know it's functional) just scream rice. Personally, if I am shopping for a hot hatch like that, I would go with a Golf R since the look is a lot more subtle. And that's the car Civic Type R competes against, not a V8 pony car with a sports car chassis(hot hatches are ultimately still built on family car chassis).

In a different situation, I would definitely consider some of them. If I live in Europe or Japan, an MX-5 would be much more attractive to me compared to a Camaro. Still, if someone is buying a 2.0T/V6 Camaro, I don't see many of them making it onto the cross-shopping list other than the 370Z and maybe an WRX, assuming they are okay with a Sedan. Any Sedan, to me, has 2 many doors.

[Hops]

Originally Posted by foshjowler

Most of the cars on the list compete pretty directly with with the 2.0T and V6 Camaro/Mustang. The Civic Type R might be the only one I can see someone cross shopping with an SS/GT. It puts up some serious lap times, and is in the same neighborhood for price.

I think that's right.I briefly considered the Type R, but i was able to relax my rear seat requirement, the SS is a much better value.



But this "muscle car" vs "sport car" isn't really a substantive conversation unless definitions are offered.

[DaveC113]

BRZ/86 is very fast at autox. I did consider it, but BRZ and Miata are too small, load capacity is really low. I also don't like the fact they are slower than many family sedans and crossover utes these days, this is pretty annoying that you can't pass/overtake easily in a sports car.

I don't consider fwd cars either, just don't like fwd.

AWD can work well but Subaru WRX/STi are basically garbage. I had a few, my last car was a '16 STi and I got rid of it because it had too many issues. WRX's engine is a joke, worst of both worlds, it's detuned on the bottom end so it doesn't self-destruct AND it dies out at the top end. STi is laggy but has power to redline, as long as the motor doesn't grenade, and it probably will. Then Subaru may claim abuse and refuse warranty, even if bone stock.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

No doubt, we can get defensive. Any other group of enthusiasts will react in the same manner. And for decades we've been told that our cars suck compared to foreign cars, that we should be willing to pay double for a foreign car with similar (and sometimes much worse) performance b/c the panel gap is a fraction of a millimeter smaller and the dash we'll only touch when cleaning the car is covered in something more expensive than plastic. That our cars are just "unsophisticated". We've been called rednecks and hillbillies for simply liking the sound of a V8 over most other engine noises. The Fast and Furious wave brought in a huge amount of enthusiasts for Japanese cars that trashed American cars and their owners for decades. Somehow in 2020 with a car that has world class performance, most people still think of Camaro drivers as mullet sporting morons. The writing is just about on the wall for the Camaro, pony cars, and V8's. GM is going balls deep into electric. Ford put the Mustang name on a CUV which is designed for old women, a fricking CUV! Magazines have traditionally crapped all over us and our cars. Now that the Camaro has finally won over SOME journalists, it isn't selling, and it's too expensive for most of the people that still like the car. Can you blame us for getting defensive at times?

Well, it has already happened to JDM. Modern JDM is pretty much dead at this point.

Sent from toaster or something

[dmcmahan60]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

BRZ/86 is very fast at autox. I did consider it, but BRZ and Miata are too small, load capacity is really low. I also don't like the fact they are slower than many family sedans and crossover utes these days, this is pretty annoying that you can't pass/overtake easily in a sports car.

I don't consider fwd cars either, just don't like fwd.

AWD can work well but Subaru WRX/STi are basically garbage. I had a few, my last car was a '16 STi and I got rid of it because it had too many issues. WRX's engine is a joke, worst of both worlds, it's detuned on the bottom end so it doesn't self-destruct AND it dies out at the top end. STi is laggy but has power to redline, as long as the motor doesn't grenade, and it probably will. Then Subaru may claim abuse and refuse warranty, even if bone stock.

I completely understand and owned 2 Subarus. 2004 WRX which had the glass 5 speed, and I grenade it 2 times but will still a fun car for 250 WHP. Then I had a 2008 STI on E85 and an 18G turbo that was 375 WHP that was also fun but became very unreliable when you heavily modify one to that power level on stock internals.

And the difference between the FA series engines vs the EJ series is night and day in my opinion. I had a chance to get another WRX 2017 and test drove one. Did not like it plus takes too much time and money to get them to stock SS HP numbers. Just giving my opinion

[cellsafemode]

I think the sales number shows.. nobody cross-shops camaro with any of the other V6 and I4 type cars out there except Mustang's and Chargers (and..maybe challengers...but only masochists buy a v6 challenger).

The camaro is not dipping into that much...much larger market.

The camaro (all trims)'s only real competition is mustang, charger, challenger, corvette, and maybe some bmw's at this point. But it's biggest competition is that the public doesn't need pony cars. They really dont want them. They dont like driving but if the're gonna have to, they are more than serviced by the performance from just about anything built these days.

Chevy and ford and dodge could have dealt with this in a better way than basically staying the course and watching pony cars dive into extinction. They could have differentiated pony cars from "regular" cars by being driver centric beyond what's available in other cars for the demographics that buy pony cars.
1. make the cars easy to service diy. Stop making them harder to work on yourself and instead, make this model very easy to diy. Make the computer able to tell you easily without external devices what the problem is, able to be reset etc. make programming the engine for mods easy and user friendly while retaining emissions control checks so that users are less inclined to just disable them than figure out how to get everything operating as it should.

2. Make the infotainment system easy to interface with and modify. No proprietary nonsense and encrypted crap. You can still be extremely secure from hackers and thieves without resorting to that nonsense.

3. Sure, get rid of the manual trans, but make sure the replacement trans has instant shifting ability when under manual control.

4. Design the interior to be easily accessible and replaceable by third parties. Put the 3d cad designs up for companies to make their own replacement panels etc without having to do all of the legwork themselves.

..ideas like that. Basically, make pony cars the kind of car that is pro-consumer and diy... keep the rest the way they're going. That would create a customer base that goes beyond the dwindling high performance muscle car type. It would start dipping into the growing and much larger maker community that can appreciate the cars for what you're allowed to do with them and become fans that way. You're not going to lose the current fans who already like the cars. But you're not going to gain any by keeping the status quo.