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Old 02-24-2018, 04:15 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Thill444 View Post
I would be surprised if they offer this. Price of vehicles continues to go up and most buyers want more features and tech, not less.
It sounds like people would be happy with a 330 hp V8 with a single exhaust out behind the back tire . I don't get , Why go backwards .
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Old 02-24-2018, 04:38 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le View Post
It sounds like people would be happy with a 330 hp V8 with a single exhaust out behind the back tire . I don't get , Why go backwards .
IMO, if people actually wanted (AND BOUGHT) that, Chevy would sell it. I'm sure it'd be cheaper to build than the current LT1.

From what I've seen, though, most folks who actually put their money where their mouth is want more than "old, cheaper technology."
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:39 AM   #689
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Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le View Post
It sounds like people would be happy with a 330 hp V8 with a single exhaust out behind the back tire . I don't get , Why go backwards .
If such a V8 has the same price that the actual V6 (or the Turbo) i'll take the V8!
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:50 AM   #690
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Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le View Post
It sounds like people would be happy with a 330 hp V8 with a single exhaust out behind the back tire . I don't get , Why go backwards .
so a V8 with 330 horsepower is better than a 6 with 323(even in the 5th gen)?i dont understand how a V8 with less horsepower would be a hot seller...
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:45 AM   #691
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if they are debating bringing out the refresh, maybe it is as simple as does their current market research indicate that the cost of change likely results in the increase in sales that they are hoping for. ie it could be that there is now a question in regards to what can really be addressed in a refresh and they don't feel it will really move the needle for them

there is no question the performance of the 6th gen is incredible so practically that isn't holding it back

at least for me, i believe they need to have something that is a more radical change as i just don't personally care for the high belt line for example and more closed interior versus what i like.

Everyone likes different things, if the issue was performance that actually would probably be welcomed as it would be easier to address. i think this has more to do with just needing something that is a more substantive styling change and different compared to what has been a good run of gen 5 and 6, but maybe running out of new buyers.
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:56 AM   #692
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GM may have a new buyer as my GT mods are getting my dander up. I could not believe an Asst. Mgr. at a major Dealer body shop did not know what a nut rivet gun was??
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:11 AM   #693
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Originally Posted by Gray50 View Post
IMO, if people actually wanted (AND BOUGHT) that, Chevy would sell it. I'm sure it'd be cheaper to build than the current LT1.

From what I've seen, though, most folks who actually put their money where their mouth is want more than "old, cheaper technology."
In the past the “performance” in performance cars was more of a suggestion than reality. Decals and sporty appearance with handling improvements. The cars couldn’t even be hot rodded economically because the entire driveline was weak.

We are so fortunate that we can buy cars with this level of performance at this price. If the cost of new is a barrier, buy a one or two year old car. Building a shitty performing version would be a mistake.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:08 AM   #694
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In the past the “performance” in performance cars was more of a suggestion than reality. Decals and sporty appearance with handling improvements. The cars couldn’t even be hot rodded economically because the entire driveline was weak.

We are so fortunate that we can buy cars with this level of performance at this price. If the cost of new is a barrier, buy a one or two year old car. Building a shitty performing version would be a mistake.
I have owned a few of the cars , you hit the nail on the head . Putting Impala brakes on and calling it performance are the days i don't want to see again. Nowadays you can buy a used car with a full warranty , i waited a lifetime for these camaros , and they are at a level i only dreamed of 35 years ago .
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:18 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by camaro5 View Post
Truthfully, I don't think they would cancel the refresh.

It's too cheap to do, and definitely needed.

What nags at me is that Kise seems to be a decent, good member of Camaro6, I read some previous posts.

Plus, the Warren part seems legit and probable for full inside info.

Just a curious brain teaser, probably.

LOL - looks like you've seen some "changing" info too, by your join date.

To sum up, let's look to DGthe3's sig motto:

Originally Posted by FbodFather
My sister's dentist's brother's cousin's housekeeper's dog-breeder's nephew sells coffee filters to the company that provides coffee to General Motors......
........and HE WOULD KNOW!!!!

From what I can tell, something is changing. What and how much is the question. You don't run mules with camouflaged front and rear fascia just for giggles. What Number 3 might be hearing is that some of the content of a refresh has been dialed back. There is still a lot that can be done in annual programs without calling it a refresh. Just for the sake of terminology, you have, in increasing order of complexity, cost and engineering requirements, Annual Programs, Mid-Cycle Refresh 1, Mid-Cycle Refresh 2, Mid-Cycle Refresh with Powertrain, Major, New. As an example, I would call 2018 Mustang a Mid-Cycle Refresh with Powertrain. Not certain if that is Ford's terminology, but that is how we would have described it to the Camaro team when I was still at GM.

I would not be surprised to see an Annual with mild front fascia changes, a new interior feature or two and revised taillamps. Based on the EPA stuff that someone else has found and posted, it looks like the 10AT is gonna happen. You don't make that kind of change and cancel the simple stuff.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:26 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by corsa636 View Post
If such a V8 has the same price that the actual V6 (or the Turbo) i'll take the V8!
Maybe chevy needs to bring back the old 5.7 H.O. , that would fit the bill for a lot of drivers that want a V8 , and a nice 20 year step backwards to keep the Retro people happy also.
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:30 AM   #697
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Maybe chevy needs to bring back the old 5.7 H.O. , that would fit the bill for a lot of drivers that want a V8 , and a nice 20 year step backwards to keep the Retro people happy also.
Don't hold your breath. Engineering, manufacturing, and validating new engines with different bore and/or stroke from the high volume runners is mega-expensive. The bulk of the $$ are going to be pointed towards fuel economy techs (Dynamic Fuel Management in the pickups and utilities, mild hybrid systems) and ADAS / Autonomous techs.
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Old 02-25-2018, 11:09 AM   #698
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
From what I can tell, something is changing. What and how much is the question. You don't run mules with camouflaged front and rear fascia just for giggles. What Number 3 might be hearing is that some of the content of a refresh has been dialed back. There is still a lot that can be done in annual programs without calling it a refresh. Just for the sake of terminology, you have, in increasing order of complexity, cost and engineering requirements, Annual Programs, Mid-Cycle Refresh 1, Mid-Cycle Refresh 2, Mid-Cycle Refresh with Powertrain, Major, New. As an example, I would call 2018 Mustang a Mid-Cycle Refresh with Powertrain. Not certain if that is Ford's terminology, but that is how we would have described it to the Camaro team when I was still at GM.

I would not be surprised to see an Annual with mild front fascia changes, a new interior feature or two and revised taillamps. Based on the EPA stuff that someone else has found and posted, it looks like the 10AT is gonna happen. You don't make that kind of change and cancel the simple stuff.
Just to be clear, I'm not the one hearing anything or reporting on anything I've heard. I don't even know anyone working on the Camaro. I know more people that have worked on the new Mustang actually.

I'm merely speculating based on knowledge of having been there, done that, like you. And even that doesn't mean it's what they are doing.


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Part of the problem might be that Millennials (this isn't a slam of them) seem to not be as interested in performance vehicles as previous generations. Add to that the insane debt they leave college with nowadays and their inclination to live with their parents longer, it just isn't a recipe for this type of vehicle to sell well at the high price level with the younger generation.

I'm at the point in my life that I have left pony cars behind for a performance sedan with 4 doors for hauling my kids as a daily driver. I'd love a 6th gen ZL1 or 1LE to replace my 69 Mustang as a toy, but new, the 6th gens are too high priced for me right now too justify with more important priorities in my life. I have no interest in the 4 nor 6 cylinder cars as a second car to toy around with. The 2016 SS's are now in the mid to high 20's, which is doable. But for people like me in this stage of life (my other car friends are in similar situations), a ~$40k toy is just too much, especially knowing that it'll lose $15-20k of its value in a few years.
They (don't lump them all into one category because on my team, the biggest car guys are millennials) are generally not into ownership of cars at all. They are one of the reasons Uber and Lyft and car sharing (OMG I can't imagine doing that) are all the rage. But when they have families and realize Uber doesn't quite cut it, mini vans and SUVs.

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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
Don't hold your breath. Engineering, manufacturing, and validating new engines with different bore and/or stroke from the high volume runners is mega-expensive. The bulk of the $$ are going to be pointed towards fuel economy techs (Dynamic Fuel Management in the pickups and utilities, mild hybrid systems) and ADAS / Autonomous techs.
Almost everyone on this site way under estimates what it takes to simply calibrate an engine for a new application let alone the cost of doing a new engine. It's hugely expensive in both capital and resources. It's why we get into discussions about how awesome after market calibrations are "better" two weeks after GM has released a new model that had dozens of people and millions of dollars of dyno time and vehicle time to develop a calibration over 3 years But yeah, in two weeks someone with a laptop can make a car better in every way. LOL

Besides, if GM is going to spend money on a low volume engine (5.7L) for a low volume car (Camaro) it better be HUGELY profitable and it won't be. For the most part the manufacturing and material cost for a 5.7L would be the same as a 6.2L but you want it in a lower cost version of the Camaro? Nope. Maybe the truck version of the 5.3L because it exists but even that would still require a significant effort for development.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:57 PM   #699
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I've been saying 5.3 forever lol..all the tuner speed guys I know love the 5.3 cost mods etc which has nothing to do with placing it in the new Camaro ..but its obvious something must change increase sales and profits..great thread !
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Old 02-25-2018, 01:12 PM   #700
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.....Almost everyone on this site way under estimates what it takes to simply calibrate an engine for a new application let alone the cost of doing a new engine. It's hugely expensive in both capital and resources. It's why we get into discussions about how awesome after market calibrations are "better" two weeks after GM has released a new model that had dozens of people and millions of dollars of dyno time and vehicle time to develop a calibration over 3 years But yeah, in two weeks someone with a laptop can make a car better in every way. LOL

Besides, if GM is going to spend money on a low volume engine (5.7L) for a low volume car (Camaro) it better be HUGELY profitable and it won't be. For the most part the manufacturing and material cost for a 5.7L would be the same as a 6.2L but you want it in a lower cost version of the Camaro? Nope. Maybe the truck version of the 5.3L because it exists but even that would still require a significant effort for development.
And here I thought I was the only one who thought like that.

To be fair, there is some low hanging fruit that tuners can use that GM calibraters can't take advantage of due to EPA requirements and/or long term durability concerns.
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