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Old 02-15-2013, 11:32 AM   #253
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If people stop buying V8s and demand 75mpg sports cars, that's life. So then if GM stoppped putting V8s in Camaros and only offered an NA 4-banger, fine. As long as the market, and not the Government, forced them to make that decision I'm ok with it. What I'm not ok with is the Government limiting (or taking away) my choices.
I don't think anyone will disagree with you there. The thing is the government isn't limiting our choices. The burden is being put on the industry as a whole with a new set of standards. Personally I think our hot rods will be around for a long time to come. We may have to pay a price for them, but they will be there for the taking. There will be a time when all dino fuel engines will no longer exist, and the people in that time period will look back at us and say "WTH were those mooks thinking" ...
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:42 AM   #254
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There will be a time when all dino fuel engines will no longer exist, and the people in that time period will look back at us and say "WTH were those mooks thinking" ...
When that time comes, we can all get diesels and convert them to run on vegetable grease.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #255
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I could never understand why some people have such a RTC factor in their life. Change is a good thing and should be embraced. Without change, life becomes very stagnate.
Change is not necessarily a good thing. It makes no sense to fix something that is not broken. In the free market world, change is usually good, because in that scenario, it is generally done only when improvements are being made.

In the coercive regulatory world, change is usually a bad thing. That the change is only happening because artificial outside agencies are forcing it is a good indication that it is change for the worse, because otherwise, the change would be naturally occurring on its own.

Changing from a 330hp V6 to a 270hp turbo 4 that gets similar mileage, but is higher maintenance and costs more is not good change. It is getting less and paying more.

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In other words in life you change the things you can and embrace the things you can't.
I think that's what the Polish said in 1938.

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I don't think anyone will disagree with you there. The thing is the government isn't limiting our choices. The burden is being put on the industry as a whole with a new set of standards.
Please explain the reasoning behind this. If increasingly expensive mandates are being put on "the industry" that inevitably get passed on to the buyer, while continuously limiting the choice to the consumer (because most of us have finite money to spend on our cars...we can't all buy the ZL1), how are our choices not being limited? Just because your choices aren't being limited does not mean most of our's aren't.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:30 PM   #256
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The thing is the government isn't limiting our choices. The burden is being put on the industry as a whole with a new set of standards. Personally I think our hot rods will be around for a long time to come. We may have to pay a price for them, but they will be there for the taking. There will be a time when all dino fuel engines will no longer exist, and the people in that time period will look back at us and say "WTH were those mooks thinking" ...

At what point does a hot rod become just too expensive for the average Joe? I guess I don't see exclusivity as a positive when it comes to a fun car.

The only reason that the so-called dino fuel engines would no longer exist in our lifetimes is that someone regulated them out.

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Please explain the reasoning behind this. If increasingly expensive mandates are being put on "the industry" that inevitably get passed on to the buyer, while continuously limiting the choice to the consumer (because most of us have finite money to spend on our cars...we can't all buy the ZL1), how are our choices not being limited? Just because your choices aren't being limited does not mean most of our's aren't.
Wait, I thought ZL1s were limited in production. In other words, I thought there were only so many allocations available annually for the car.

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Old 02-15-2013, 12:47 PM   #257
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You guys crack me up ... If a car is out of your reach, who's fault is that ? I'm not rich by any means, but I stopped all my bad habits to pay for the toys I have. The only one keeping you from the things you want is YOU.
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:49 PM   #258
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Wait, I thought ZL1s were limited in production. In other words, I thought there were only so many allocations available annually for the car.

Not at all, they were only limited the first year due to lack of production time. Currently you can find them just sitting on dealer lots.
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:06 PM   #259
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i'll say yes if it's twin turbo and 400horses. but even given a chance ,i would choose the V8 .
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:09 PM   #260
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Not at all, they were only limited the first year due to lack of production time. Currently you can find them just sitting on dealer lots.
Thanks for the info.

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You guys crack me up ... If a car is out of your reach, who's fault is that ? I'm not rich by any means, but I stopped all my bad habits to pay for the toys I have. The only one keeping you from the things you want is YOU.
As somebody who recently finished university, the 5.0 I have in my avatar is the best car I could buy in cash after a few months at work. I am not here to start any sort of arguments, but your driveway represents the total median income of an entire family in the US for about 2.5 years. I am happy you are able to amass these things. Some day soon, I will be able to afford such things as well. I just think that the Camaro was never intended to be up market.
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:13 PM   #261
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You guys crack me up ... If a car is out of your reach, who's fault is that ? I'm not rich by any means, but I stopped all my bad habits to pay for the toys I have. The only one keeping you from the things you want is YOU.
As your employment goes from being secure to less than secure to less than continuous, responsible choices get taken off the table for you.


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Old 02-15-2013, 02:25 PM   #262
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As your employment goes from being secure to less than secure to less than continuous, responsible choices get taken off the table for you.


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And if you stay on that ship, who's fault is it ? Once again the control is in your hands. All you have to do is find a service or product that is in need of others and provide it. Nobody said it would be easy, but you make your own limits. For myself if I want or need something, I just work a little harder and acquire it. It's not rocket science ...
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Old 02-15-2013, 02:55 PM   #263
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You guys crack me up ... If a car is out of your reach, who's fault is that ?
If one's budget for a car is $30K, and a car that formerly cost $25K now costs $40K or more because of draconian taxes and regulations, I blame the taxes and regulations, without which, we would all be able to afford much more than what we have now.

I genuinely do not understand this idea that it is no big deal for the government to raise the costs of everything, because you could just go out and make more. The resources of any economy or society at large are finite. It is certainly always possible to grow more, but still, what is available will always be finite. The more that is taken up by regulation and taxes, the less there is left over for those who are responsible for the generation of said resources to begin with.

Regardless of how hard anyone works, and what his abilities and income are, all else being the same, when governments push expensive punitive regulations and taxes, what anyone is able to buy is always diminished. When the value of the fruit of one's labor is systematically diminished or effectively stolen, regardless of someone's ability to produce more fruit, it is a form of bondage, and at the very least, an affront to liberty.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:19 PM   #264
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I really don't see where the government is raising the cost of everything. If a person wants to budget or limit themselves, than that's some of them. But to pass the buck so to speak, blaming all ones problems on an employer or government is just being lazy. We all have to live within rules and regulations, as adults we learn to deal with it and move on.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #265
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I'm not sure where these arguments of extra cost are coming from. There is such a thing as inflation. In 1967 it cost $3,700 for a SS396 with the same performance as a LS today. Factoring in inflation, that $3,700 is $20,293.94 in today's dollars. So for the slight increase in price you get a much better stereo, A/C, better seats, better tires and wheels, lots of saftey features, the ability to sync with a cell phone, etc... If you really don't want all that stuff for a few extra bucks, then buy a 1967 Camaro. Oh wait, in your paranoid bubble world the Government is going to ban those right after the Grizzle Bear attacks our leaving your house.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #266
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Fielder, you make excellent points and you do it well. But you'd have better luck talking to a brick wall. I've seen SlingShot discuss this before and I know what you're up against. His attitude is, "Ive got mine and I dont care if others cant afford it." It's selfish if you ask me.

That's always been the great thing about muscle/pony cars as Camaro-Dreamer said, they are affordable for the Average Joe. As we see more and more regulations and taxes aimed at performance cars, less and less middle class people will be able to afford them. Instead of them being the toys of Joe Sixpack, they will become the toys of the rich.
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