[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

The 260 miles it shows is based off its 276 wh/mi EPA rating and the battery power available. So your normal 336 wh/mi consumption would already result in less range than it is showing.

Tesla’s range guess o meter on the top of the screen sucks that way in it doesn’t adjust based off your driving habits/style and consumption that results. The energy app will show an estimated range based on current consumption though.

It’s why the common advice is to have the display show percentage instead of miles.

Thanks for that! I didn’t know it worked that way. I did already add a HUD in front of the steering wheel. It adds CarPlay and also displays both miles and percentage. That’s the top pic in my earlier post.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by MSS1LE

Are we doing politics now? By the way, food and energy costs are specifically excluded from the CPI, and of course those are the primary drivers of inflation currently along with home and vehicle prices.

I refuse to believe that you think the IRA had anything to do with inflation.

Nothing political about that post. Capricio commented that the IRA is not reducing inflation. I posted the most current US Bureau of Labor Statitistics chart on inflation. Where’s the politics? And yes, I absolutely do. The timing of the implementation of the act in its broadest form (not just EV) is more than a coincidence.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

When I’m done typing this I’ll jump in the Model Y that is currently showing me 260 miles of range and I’ll head to Costco and stuff the tailgate full of random stuff. I’ll come back home and plug it back in. That’s a round trip of 19 miles. Because of the cold and some highway driving speeds I’ll probably actually use about 25 miles for the round trip. I have a feeling that I’ll make it just fine. And when I’m ready to go somewhere else I will start with 260 miles available to me. If it winds up being actual 170 but I’m only driving 20 miles here, 50 miles there it’s not a concern at all.

Was the car in a heated garage? Even if you're starting from an insulated unheated garage, it can have a big advantage compared to cars kept outside with wind rapidly dissaping any retained heat. Can you tell us if the batteries ever reached ambient/outside temps below 15 degrees while at rest, before you set out? If they didn't, then there isn't much utility in the experiment.

Also, I'm ready to concede that EVs are doing their part to drive deflation, reducing their own used car values:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/used-...144449893.html

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Was the car in a heated garage? Even if you're starting from an insulated unheated garage, it can have a big advantage compared to cars kept outside with wind rapidly dissaping any retained heat. Can you tell us if the batteries ever reached ambient/outside temps below 15 degrees while at rest, before you set out? If they didn't, then there isn't much utility in the experiment.

Also, I'm ready to concede that EVs are doing their part to drive deflation, reducing their own used car values:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/used-...144449893.html

Would you allow Martin to precondition the car? As if the battery is below a certain temperature, as long as you precondition the car it will also heat up the battery to get it to temperature where it will perform better.

And having it plugged in has it using house power vs robbing battery power to do it.

Experiment should represent realistic/proper use. And for EV’s, it’s practical/realistic to precondition it before driving off.

Just like I want to know if the people in Chicago who plugged into a working supercharger but car wasn’t charging were navigating to the supercharger because that is what they should have been doing. It’s not that the cars weren’t charging, but all the energy going into the car was being used to warm the battery up before charging it because they likely failed to navigate to the supercharger so the car never got the battery to temp to fast charge.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Was the car in a heated garage? Even if you're starting from an insulated unheated garage, it can have a big advantage compared to cars kept outside with wind rapidly dissaping any retained heat. Can you tell us if the batteries ever reached ambient/outside temps below 15 degrees while at rest, before you set out? If they didn't, then there isn't much utility in the experiment.

Also, I'm ready to concede that EVs are doing their part to drive deflation, reducing their own used car values:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/used-...144449893.html

Nope. My house was built in the late 1920s and has a detached, non-heated garage. Right now it’s 15 degrees in Detroit and the interior temp for my car is 26 degrees. Don’t know what the battery temp is but I would expect it to be similar. Since it is plugged in I can condition the cabin and the battery before I leave. I can bring the cabin temp up to my desired temp (72 degrees) using grid power as opposed to getting in the cold car and blasting the heat while I drive. It does, of course, increase my electric bill during winter months, but we’re talking pennies per day, not dollars.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Would you allow Martin to precondition the car? As if the battery is below a certain temperature, as long as you precondition the car it will also heat up the battery to get it to temperature where it will perform better.

And having it plugged in has it using house power vs robbing battery power to do it.

Experiment should represent realistic/proper use. And for EV’s, it’s practical/realistic to precondition it before driving off.

Just like I want to know if the people in Chicago who plugged into a working supercharger but car wasn’t charging were navigating to the supercharger because that is what they should have been doing. It’s not that the cars weren’t charging, but all the energy going into the car was being used to warm the battery up before charging it because they likely failed to navigate to the supercharger so the car never got the battery to temp to fast charge.

I’m still following this one. It is starting to sound like a convergence of conditions. Whereas I originally thought it was one station it was several stations, concentrated in one part of Chicago, near one of the airports. This makes me think geography has some part to play here. Superchargers in other parts of Chicago were not as affected. They were running slower than usual due to the cold, but not as slow as the ones in this area of Chicago. The fact that it was near one of the airports presents the idea that many of the cars had been sitting at the airport for sometime and left the airport to go to charge. Two problems from this… First problem is that if the cars were left overnight or over several nights, as is common with airports, the batteries tend to dissipate about 1% of energy when sitting overnight unplugged. More in extreme cold. And if the cars were in Sentry mode they could drop as much as 15%!!! I must say that if I’m leaving my car at an airport I would want it to be in Sentry mode, so that would suck.

When owners come back to these cars with significantly reduced range, they would want to go to a Supercharger quick. Which gets to the second problem. At these extreme temperatures, the likelihood that the battery would be preconditioned by the time the car arrived at a nearby Supercharger is very low. So it’s not that the driver was negligent in not preconditioning the battery, it’s that because they were unplugged at really cold temperatures with depleted charge, they couldn’t precondition enough to aid the charging time.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m still following this one. It is starting to sound like a convergence of conditions. Whereas I originally thought it was one station it was several stations, concentrated in one part of Chicago, near one of the airports. This makes me think geography has some part to play here. Superchargers in other parts of Chicago were not as affected. They were running slower than usual due to the cold, but not as slow as the ones in this area of Chicago. The fact that it was near one of the airports presents the idea that many of the cars had been sitting at the airport for sometime and left the airport to go to charge. Two problems from this… First problem is that if the cars were left overnight or over several nights, as is common with airports, the batteries tend to dissipate about 1% of energy when sitting overnight unplugged. More in extreme cold. And if the cars were in Sentry mode they could drop as much as 15%!!! I must say that if I’m leaving my car at an airport I would want it to be in Sentry mode, so that would suck.

When owners come back to these cars with significantly reduced range, they would want to go to a Supercharger quick. Which gets to the second problem. At these extreme temperatures, the likelihood that the battery would be preconditioned by the time the car arrived at a nearby Supercharger is very low. So it’s not that the driver was negligent in not preconditioning the battery, it’s that because they were unplugged at really cold temperatures with depleted charge, they couldn’t precondition enough to aid the charging time.

It's all probably in likelihood a combination of all that. Some didn't navigate to the supercharger, not enough time to get the battery to temp, etc.

A lot of the EV channels started doing these tests ever since the story broke. The first one did what one should do, it's negative -30 F and the car still charged.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Would you allow Martin to precondition the car? As if the battery is below a certain temperature, as long as you precondition the car it will also heat up the battery to get it to temperature where it will perform better.

And having it plugged in has it using house power vs robbing battery power to do it.

I assumed it was an experiment to see how cold batteries perform in cold conditions. Not warm batteries in cold conditions, what would be the point of that? Just to illustrate the overhead consumption of the heat pump/conditioning? I'm assuming you'd want to know worst case conditions, like the apt dwelling uber driver that parks in an outside lot with no reliable shore power, or as martinjim said, returning home on a flight to economy parking outside.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Capricio

I assumed it was an experiment to see how cold batteries perform in cold conditions. Not warm batteries in cold conditions, what would be the point of that? Just to illustrate the overhead consumption of the heat pump/conditioning? I'm assuming you'd want to know worst case conditions, like the apt dwelling uber driver that parks in an outside lot with no reliable shore power, or as martinjim said, returning home on a flight to economy parking outside.

It was not an experiment at all. The topic came up in the thread just as I was planning a trip to Costco so I simply paid more attention to the metrics of my trip. Nothing special done on my part, I simply rolled the same way I normally roll but this time took pictures of the numbers and did a little post analysis.

I would like to know more about worst case scenarios and study examples of them, but I see no need to conduct extreme tests on my own. As an automotive consultant I want to understand the edge cases. I can typically do that without developing or recreating experiments myself. I have access to people who do that and I rely on their expertise.

[The Chief (tm)]

That the car can pre-condition the battery if it "knows" it is headed to a charger, by having been "sent" there via the navigation system, is sorta cool.

But at the same time, to me it seems a not-so-minor point that, if an owner FAILS to explicitly navigate to the charger, then the battery doesn't pre-condition (if it has time to, etc.), and therefore this can directly have a negative, and meaningful, impact on charging performance.

Sure, one could say that as an owner, one "should know" what the best practices are -- especially if and when dealing with temperature extremes -- but at one end of the spectrum, say that one has left the car parked *within visual distance* of a charger. Is there not a high likelihood that this owner would simply, y'know, just scoot on over there and plug in? But now the battery didn't pre-condition, so there's whatever effect that has on the charging results.

It appears that this might have affected only a subset of the cars involved with the issue in Chi-town, but I wonder how many Tesla owners are aware of this operating subtlety.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by The Chief (tm)

That the car can pre-condition the battery if it "knows" it is headed to a charger, by having been "sent" there via the navigation system, is sorta cool.

But at the same time, to me it seems a not-so-minor point that, if an owner FAILS to explicitly navigate to the charger, then the battery doesn't pre-condition (if it has time to, etc.), and therefore this can directly have a negative, and meaningful, impact on charging performance.

Sure, one could say that as an owner, one "should know" what the best practices are -- especially if and when dealing with temperature extremes -- but at one end of the spectrum, say that one has left the car parked *within visual distance* of a charger. Is there not a high likelihood that this owner would simply, y'know, just scoot on over there and plug in? But now the battery didn't pre-condition, so there's whatever effect that has on the charging results.

It appears that this might have affected only a subset of the cars involved with the issue in Chi-town, but I wonder how many Tesla owners are aware of this operating subtlety.

I think must are or at least should be. It’s talked anbout a lot in Tesla owners circles. Any route planning done using the Tesla navigation map includes recommendations of where to stop to charge and for how long. For people who can plug in every night and only use Superchargers when they travel, as long as they’re using the built in nav, prego, it’s in there.

The issue would be for people who don’t have dedicated nighttime charging and use local public charging a lot. On one hand it would also seem to me that if you use local public charging a lot there’s all the more reason for you to be familiar with the importance of preconditioning. But on the other hand if you weren’t used to doing it in warmer seasons I guess you could forget to do it when it gets colder.

[genxer]

Public charging is just going to be subject to bottlenecks. People are told to add a layer of planning to trips, and or accept a capability reduction.

Home charging makes most sense from a garage. Making it an issue if one wants to re-purpose the spot. And limiting the set of following owners the cars appeal to.

What will it take for the pro-ev side to stop telling people they'll have to learn to live with the drawbacks? And to admit adoption isn't an inevitable end?

[ariZona28]

Take the Corvette E-Ray drivetrain and plunk it into a new "midsize" sedan. They could even use the Turbo 4 for economy. 4-door model named Malibu. 2-door model named Chevelle. Throw in a SS version of the Chevelle for enthusiasts. Maybe reduce the interior arcade amenities to reduce cost in certain models. Market it aggressively, Mopar style. Promise the individuals you'll never wait in line to charge your new Chevrolet Hybrid. Time for gm to seize the moment. They can PM for more advice, my fee will be nominal.

[tillypowell]

Hey @ariZona28, that's a fascinating idea! Taking the Corvette E-Ray drivetrain and putting it into a midsize sedan like the Malibu and Chevelle models would definitely create some exciting hybrid options. An SS version of the Chevelle for enthusiasts is a fantastic touch too.
Your suggestion to reduce certain interior amenities for cost savings while still promising quick charging, Mopar style, is a smart approach. GM should definitely consider seizing this opportunity.
I'd love to hear more of your insights and ideas in the future. For the latest updates on cars and bikes, be sure to check out Latest Updates about Cars and Bikes. Keep those great ideas coming!