[newmoon]

Originally Posted by oldman

I have a supercharged V6 with two stage N20. The problems are the bushings are not up to the task in:
front and rear links,
rear subframe.

The suspension arms are weak especially the rear and only in 2015 did Dodge go to a cast aluminum arm for the rear, the bottom one AFAIK.

I updated both my Challengers to new bushings soon after getting them. Had to swap the diff anyway.

The Challengers at my track capable of 12 on stock tires can be counted on one hand.

I run P Zero Nero on 20" chrome clads my car is 3700 lbs

Why would you modify a V6 to this degree and not expect to have issues with the drivetrain, The Challengers at your track not capable of 12s are they V6, or 5.7 R/T models? If they are not your drivers/track are awful.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Yes, base A5 R/T.

I was just responding to a blanket statement about how "Challengers can't launch"

Yep I've not heard many complaints in the RT cars, course I've spent most time reading about the 392 ones.

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[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by oldman

I have a supercharged V6 with two stage N20. The problems are the bushings are not up to the task in:
front and rear links,
rear subframe.

The suspension arms are weak especially the rear and only in 2015 did Dodge go to a cast aluminum arm for the rear, the bottom one AFAIK.

I updated both my Challengers to new bushings soon after getting them. Had to swap the diff anyway.

The Challengers at my track capable of 12 on stock tires can be counted on one hand.

I run P Zero Nero on 20" chrome clads my car is 3700 lbs

Wait...so you're starting off with a V6 Challenger?

No wonder you're having problems with the suspension.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

Bitter much? The tale isn't old. It's just an example of what the car is going to be "up against" at the local track. It will win some, it will lose some. Why? Because not all drivers are experts, that's on you, not the car. People are going to post videos of them taking down competition...with your username being "oldman", you would think you'd understand that. Talk all day about what your car's supposed fastest 0-60 and 1/4 times are...but if you the driver can't make those numbers a reality...well yea, you know they have a name for the people who sit there and spout off paper numbers all the time. And of course, as soon as someone mentions their car isn't bone stock, everyone has to go on a rant about how they probably had TONS of other mods that aren't listed. Even though the fast list would suggest otherwise. Very competitive times out there for the Chally Scat Pack.

Extrapolation to the extreme, I said a car at the drags with DR on probably is not "bone stock". Period. I did not saying anything about the extent of the mods nor do I care.

Pretend all you want given equivalent tires and equivalent drivers the Scat Pack is not equivalent at all. It is FAR FAR harder running a 4200 lbs car consistently vs a 3600 lbs car period. You say "very competitive", I'd suggest it is an underdog by a wide margin. I will further say given a normal set of blot ons / tune the Camaro will become dominant by a wide margin given it is 600 lbs lighter. Plus we all know an A8 Camaro is .2 seconds faster than the M6 meaning like equipped Scat Pack vs Camaro stone stock one would expect about .3 seconds in the Camaro's favor, that is not what I'd call "very competitive".

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

Some Mustangs will beat some Camaros and vice versa. Some Challengers will beat some Camaros, and vice versa. Because...driver mod. Nobody is talking about you being on a road course or doing autox, since that is literally every sore losers retort anytime they see anything that hints at someone beating their "beloved" Camaro at a drag strip. "Well, but it's a sports car now, not a muscle car...it goes around corners". I'm sure Mustang guys do it as well, but who knows? Makes your bias a bit hard to swallow...but hey, this is a Camaro forum, so I guess I get it.

I own two Challengers FYI, The Scat Pack is a one trick pony and that trick is getting harder to pull off. Truth be told, Fiat ain't going to put a dime into a new design so the Challenger is saddle with an antiquated Benz platform
that is severely overweight.

Ford and Chevy have both gone to newer lighter to drastically lighter and stronger designs. One step further, their road race cars like the GT350 and the 1le and the last model Z/28 have gone to NA in the lightest configuration. Dodge can't do it, so the BITTER Dodge boys can only claim one trick and as the final trick it is to shove a 707 HP engine in a car that weighs 4592 lbs in the Charger Hellcat. Oh my god. That is almost 1000 lbs more. Sorry I don't need a car for the autox or road course as you extrapolate and exaggerate. I don't want a car that I have to approach every corner or bend in the road carefully. The last Challenger Scat Pack had a .89g.

The future of autox and road race pony cars and yes that's what all three cars are, will be NA engines in a lighter de-content car with big brakes and cooling, yes don't forget cooling which you can't get in the Scat Pack, they are not track capable out of the box. Magazine have LONG ago given up testing the Challenger vs (Mustang / Camaro). With the 6th gen it is completely worthless comparison. The 6th gen is 600 lbs lighter and completely dominant in every way over the nearly two decade old Benz platform. This is the first few months of production, that lead will increase in the very near future.



Never said any Camaro can win all races. Once again I merely speculated that a guy at the strip with DR on probably does not have a "bone stock" car. You can believe in unicorns and fairy dust all you want. The video just shows a DR Challenger with a way better driver beating a Camaro, happens all the time. It in no way shows the ability of both cars, which it purports to do.

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

Fact is, the two cars were at a drag strip, which doesn't require turning. So why even bring it up? It's an illogical and nonsensical argument.

Fact is this is an SS vs Scat Pack thread and last I checked both cars spend 99.99% of the time on the street where one actually has to turn.

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

and most people that buy Camaro/Challenger/Charger/Mustang at best go to a 1/4 mile strip, not a road course.

Actually I see many Camaros and Mustangs ate the autoX and road course. What I don't see are Challengers, and actually there was a Scat Pack that showed up at the last autoX we had in 2015 and he was DEAD last , yep even a v6 convertible auto rental was faster.


I say most people buy the cars to go down the road sans drag radials and in that case the Scat Pack is at a huge disadvantage. Talking about magazine racing, street, autoX and road race: Camaro absolutely dominant.
Drag race with DR, the Camaro is absolutely dominate given equivalent cars and drivers. That leaves only one trick, a much better driver with a better setup up Scat Pack can indeed win against a newbee in a stone stock Camaro. Amen.

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

Only a choice few really do any kind of racing other than stop light (which I don't condone) or their local strip. Just because you see 100 people who do it on a forum, doesn't mean it's the majority.

Cheers!

Never said the majority do any racing. You just made that up. Time and again the Challenger guys will insist at the drag strip with a competent driver and a prep car that their car is competitive. As stated not really and only in a mismatch such as the video. All other driving from street to road race the Camaro is absolutely dominant, not even close and that is the 99.9999% percentile.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Wait...so you're starting off with a V6 Challenger?

No wonder you're having problems with the suspension.

Um dude all Challengers have the exact same chassis and the primary components are exactly the same. You think a cast iron V8 makes the car handle better? Funny.

[SpeedIsLife]

So you're trying to say that the R/T and the V6 have everything exactly the same and the only thing that is different is the Hemi?

Please provide part numbers as proof, because I think you're wrong.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

So you're trying to say that the R/T and the V6 have everything exactly the same and the only thing that is different is the Hemi?

Please provide part numbers as proof, because I think you're wrong.

LOL, don't care what you think. I said it shares the same chassis and primary suspension components. I've long since upgraded the bushings, springs, damper and rear sway bar, rims and tires. Since for the most part these items suck in general who cares if you toss the FAR too small SRT rear bar or the stock V6 rear bar? Or are you saying that the slightly better SRT rear bar somehow made the new bar better or worst.

Or maybe, I miss understand you, you think the hemi has better subframe bushings, cradle or suspension arms? Think not. Here is the actual breakdown of changes

to 2009 all LX cars have the same arms and bushings, there are a few cast aluminum rear arms.
The cop cars have the best springs and bars and brakes V6 or V8
The SRT has better brakes is an exception
2011 Dodge redesigned the front arms strut and bushing, all these can bolt to any LX as long as you do it as a package
2012ish Dodge changed the rear arms designs lengths and bushing material. I've never swapped the whole setup but would imagine the subframe is slightly different at the pickups, it is different at the differential.
2012 the street performance suspension available on V6 as well as V8 Challengers which is basically the LX cop suspension. It has a superior rear sway bar. Which is lacking in all other LX platforms even the SRT.
oh and 2015 went to a new cast aluminum spindle/ arm the rear. one of the 5 total pieces
Vs Camaro which has all cast aluminum arms

I've done about 50 Dodge setups, how many have you done

[SpeedIsLife]

Why are you so freaking hostile and condescending in every damn post you make?

I don't own a Challenger and I haven't worked on them in detail, all I said was that I thought you were wrong, not that you were.

[IntricateDetail]

Originally Posted by oldman

Extrapolation to the extreme, I said a car at the drags with DR on probably is not "bone stock". Period. I did not saying anything about the extent of the mods nor do I care.

Don't really have time to address everything so just put your first para in quotes so you'd know who I was responding to haha.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said. If you look at my post history, I love the Camaro...and I am highly interested in it. But what I love even more, are facts, and information, and knowledge. I guess that's a bit redundant, but hey, such is life.

So really, I would agree that in almost any other environment other than a drag strip, the Camaro would absolutely own a Challenger Scat Pack. Heck, like you said...it's obvious, even though people don't really even test them against the Mustang/Camaro anymore. And I get that.

I would venture to say though...that people usually are a bit biased towards a brand. Maybe not you, but most. Most people who are huge Camaro fans, would buy it even if it was .2 seconds slower 0-60 or in the 1/4 than the Mustang. Because...Camaro. In that same regard, those people are very much the ones who will twist everything to make it seem like the Camaro has the advantage. And that's not my cup of tea.

Those who chase the fastest "stock" numbers will never be satisfied. Because you won't last more than 2-3 years being the fastest in the pony car world. You have 2-3 years tops before they release a mid-cycle power increase, or some other kind of improvement that eliminates that small lead. That's why they have aftermarket parts...and that's why I will choose the car that's ultimately best for ME, even if it "appears" slower, or even if it IS slower, stock. What car is that? Only time will tell.

[oldman]

agree

The Scat Pack and all Challengers are great cars. If you want a Grand Touring car, with a great ride, excellent acceleration and can seat 5! the Challenger is the only choice. I actually like the Challenger's looks.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

Why are you so freaking hostile and condescending in every damn post you make?

I don't own a Challenger and I haven't worked on them in detail, all I said was that I thought you were wrong, not that you were.

I guess I get a little fed up with motor heads somehow thinking that a V8 is automatically the best handling / launching / platform. When straight physics would say the lighter and more evenly distributed weight makes for better handling and / or launching. The V6 LX is as light as 3700 lbs the V8 LX is as heavy as 4400 lbs.

The LX platform is used by police and many police cars are V6 so the cop rims, cop tires, cop brake, cop suspension and most importantly the cop rear sway bar are utilized. The only confusion thing about the LX is why the cop rear sway bar was not used in the SRT

Here are the LX Bars:
SE- 25mm Front, 12mm (challneger only)
SXT- 25mm Front, 15mm or 19mm
R/T- 27mm Front (a few had 30mm), Rears 15mm later 19mm for track pack
SRT8- 30mm Front (a few had 27) 392 is 32, Rears 15mm
Police Package- 30mm Front, Rears 20mm solid or 22mm Hollow
HC 34mm hollow, 19mm

You can clearly see that the police package is best all around package and the V6 LX have the stiffest bar per weight.

[Chad0311]

Originally Posted by IntricateDetail

Well yea, if you want to get the most out of those cars, you buy them knowing you are going to have to invest in more rubber, and you hopefully can work that into your "deal" with the dealership. In other words, get them to go down enough on the price to compensate for it. Scat Pack has to be ordered, but you can still find them on the lots from people who ordered and didn't pick up.

Pretty sure this car does not have to be ordered. I was interested in getting one before deciding to stay on the GM side of the house. The dealers get them occasionally.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Chad0311

Pretty sure this car does not have to be ordered. I was interested in getting one before deciding to stay on the GM side of the house. The dealers get them occasionally.

Around here you will pretty much not see one last a week at the lot. Ordering is about the only way to make sure you get one without every option.

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[Chad0311]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Around here you will pretty much not see one last a week at the lot. Ordering is about the only way to make sure you get one without every option.

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Agreed. Just making it clear that it's not an order only car. Definitely hard to find on the lots although there are a couple around out this way where I live. I test drove one a few months back.