[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by DFW1LE

The other difference might be in trying to find a GT350R that you can purchase at MSRP, while 1LEs can be had well below that.

Valid point...makes it even better of a comparison.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

It has been done time and time again throughout the auto industry. There's actually less reasons to believe the other way. Now it is possible the PP2 will put it on equal footing with the GT350s without the Track Pack. Since there never was any official numbers or reviews done on one.

Exactly...you don't want to alienate buyers of your halo cars, that is like shooting yourself in the foot. Doesn't really matter, as the PP2 will not come too close to any GT350's track capabilities (especially since all GT350's now come with the track pack, as they overheat and can't be tracked without it lol). If it did, it would also make Ford look extra stupid for all the constant R&D talk that went into this "special" car called a GT350...they have to be careful in that respect.

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

Exactly...you don't want to alienate buyers of your halo cars, that is like shooting yourself in the foot..

So alienate the potential buyers of the model which is responsible for 45% of Mustang sales, for the sake of the <1%.

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

Doesn't really matter, as the PP2 will not come too close to any GT350's track capabilities (especially since all GT350's now come with the track pack, as they overheat and can't be tracked without it lol). If it did, it would also make Ford look extra stupid for all the constant R&D talk that went into this "special" car called a GT350...they have to be careful in that respect.

Make them look extra stupid? On the contrary, it would prove the concept on its face. If they claimed they put R&D into the GT350, what better way to justify that expense than having the benefits of that expenditure trickle into lower models? That's the entire point.

"Hey everyone, we made this fancy car that won awards, reviews, and races. Now we are going to move several of those tested features into the cars you can buy at your local dealership, and they will perform pretty close to that fancy car!"

as opposed to:

"Hey everyone, we made this fancy car that won awards, reviews, and races. We could move several of those tested features into the cars you can buy at your local dealership, but that would upset several hundred people who bought that fancy car. But hey its cool because they are both called Mustang".

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

Exactly...you don't want to alienate buyers of your halo cars, that is like shooting yourself in the foot. Doesn't really matter, as the PP2 will not come too close to any GT350's track capabilities (especially since all GT350's now come with the track pack, as they overheat and can't be tracked without it lol). If it did, it would also make Ford look extra stupid for all the constant R&D talk that went into this "special" car called a GT350...they have to be careful in that respect.

There is a mountain of history that shows lesser models will not step on big brother's toes. There are a few examples of the opposite like the Buick Grand National. But I don't really recall too many.

BUT, perhaps Ford's original plan really was to stop offering the GT350 in 2018 like they originally stated, because the GT500 would be out, or soon to be out. But perhaps the GT500 got a bit delayed (for whatever reason), and Ford made up the budget revenue line item by extending the GT350 (as long as there was no further money spent on it). It would give Ford a continued halo car for the Mustang, and provide extra revenue to offset the GT500 delay costs. Ford may be less likely to protect the GT350 in this scenario. Also, there really is so very little data on the GT350's. That may give them some wiggle room to push the PP2 higher in performance. It's will be hard to say which is better with no data.

That's all speculation of course, and we will probably never know Ford's thinking on this stuff.

I just want to know where the GT500 is? When is it coming? Is it coming? Do they have to go back to the drawing board now that the Demon has come out?

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by germanicus

So alienate the potential buyers of the model which is responsible for 45% of Mustang sales, for the sake of the <1%.



Make them look extra stupid? On the contrary, it would prove the concept on its face. If they claimed they put R&D into the GT350, what better way to justify that expense than having the benefits of that expenditure trickle into lower models? That's the entire point.

"Hey everyone, we made this fancy car that won awards, reviews, and races. Now we are going to move several of those tested features into the cars you can buy at your local dealership, and they will perform pretty close to that fancy car!"

as opposed to:

"Hey everyone, we made this fancy car that won awards, reviews, and races. We could move several of those tested features into the cars you can buy at your local dealership, but that would upset several hundred people who bought that fancy car. But hey its cool because they are both called Mustang".

The purpose of a halo car is be a showcase and create good PR to bring people into the showrooms to buy the "cheaper, less performing car". So all halo cars would alienate by your logic, which is completely untrue. There would be no business justification to build them if they performed the same as a cheaper model.

There's a big difference from lower models benefiting from trickle down technology than have a $40k GT PP2 perform the same as it's $60k+ GT350 (track pack) equivalent.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by germanicus

So alienate the potential buyers of the model which is responsible for 45% of Mustang sales, for the sake of the <1%.

This is how marketing works...why do you think GM doesn't let the Camaro get tooooo close to the Corvette? Common sense actually...don't alienate the people buying the Rolex just because more buy the Timex.

Originally Posted by germanicus

Make them look extra stupid? On the contrary, it would prove the concept on its face. If they claimed they put R&D into the GT350, what better way to justify that expense than having the benefits of that expenditure trickle into lower models? That's the entire point.

Not when the engine was supposed to be like 90% of what made that car so great, and the GT doesn't have it under it's hood...

Not to mention your $40,000 car should not perform the same as your $60,000 car when both are on the showroom floor.

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I just want to know where the GT500 is? When is it coming? Is it coming? Do they have to go back to the drawing board now that the Demon has come out?

There never was an official timeline of this. The Demon shouldn't matter to them as that seems like a car with just one purpose. The GT500 should be able to turn and brake...

[SS 1LE]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

The purpose of a halo car is be a showcase and create good PR to bring people into the showrooms to buy the "cheaper, less performing car". So all halo cars would alienate by your logic, which is completely untrue. There would be no business justification to build them if they performed the same as a cheaper model.

There's a big difference from lower models benefiting from trickle down technology than have a $40k GT PP2 perform the same as it's $60k+ GT350 (track pack) equivalent.

This. It's really quite simple, well to some of us...

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by SS 1LE

This. It's really quite simple, well to some of us...

No need to condescend. We disagree. I believe that these decisions are far more complex than "we must not upset previous GT350 buyers".

For one, the GT350 is not a super car. Its not the Ford GT.

If a new lower level model performs equivalently to a higher tier model from years past, so be it.

Its a cost benefit analysis.

The numbers involved in units sold for each model demonstrably point to a dereliction / negligence on Fords part if they are purposefully restricting to sustain sales of such a small model option.
I can just imagine the shareholders now.

The GT350 keeps its flat plane crank. It keeps its carbon fiber wheels. It keeps its badging. There is enough in its branding to sustain it.

The increased sales potential of a non-restricted GT PP2 model (weighing all other normal factors such as cost of incremental improvements)

vs.

The loss of potential gt350 sales.

How many will they lose, how much profit?

Is this outweighed by those shopping for a vehicle, who are impressed by the additional performance gains and purchase a GT over a Camaro, Challenger, or other market option?

We of course don't have the raw data their Sales and Marketing operators do, but holding the gt350 up at the cost of vastly more profitable GT sales is inane.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by germanicus

If a new lower level model performs equivalently to a higher tier model from years past, so be it.



The numbers involved in units sold for each model demonstrably point to a dereliction / negligence on Fords part if they are purposefully restricting to sustain sales of such a small model option.
I can just imagine the shareholders now.

The GT350 keeps its flat plane crank. It keeps its carbon fiber wheels. It keeps its badging. There is enough in its branding to sustain it.

The increased sales potential of a non-restricted GT PP2 model (weighing all other normal factors such as cost of incremental improvements)

vs.

The loss of potential gt350 sales.

How many will they lose, how much profit?

Is this outweighed by those shopping for a vehicle, who are impressed by the additional performance gains and purchase a GT over a Camaro, Challenger, or other market option?

We of course don't have the raw data their Sales and Marketing operators do, but holding the gt350 up at the cost of vastly more profitable GT sales is inane.

This is the same generation of car. We aren't talking about a 5th gen Boss now being bested by a 6th gen GT PP2. It would amount to the same as an EB PP being faster than a GT PP. A new set of tires and revised shocks are not going to suddenly make up for the host of changes in the front suspension alone on the GT350, not to mention the engine, trans, brakes and weight differences.

And before you get wrapped up too much in sales, remember PP cars probably only make up 10-20% of GT sales...if not much lower. Same holds true for the 1LE. Ford isn't losing any money but they certainly listened to the market about offering the PP with an auto. There was more money being lost there than any "not allowing" the GT PP2 to run with the GT350.


Ford is the worse at overhyping and under delivering lately. '15 GT PP can't best a 5th gen 1LE. EB PP gets it's ass handed to it by a FWD VW GTI at VIR. GT350 with Track Pack puts out numbers a '16 2SS with MRC can. GT350R loses to car it was purposely built to defeat on VIR and there still is no Ring time for it either. Don't suddenly expect a miracle, expect improvements.

[crysalis_01]

So, GT350 continuing to sell at over msrp is a bad thing? Doesn't that show that the demand/desire for the car is still very high? I would have more of an issue if it needed discounting/incentives to move metal.

As for PP2 stepping on GT350's toes. . . it really shouldn't be an issue. Because some don't realize that there are a great many buyers that if given the choice of a GT350 vs a equal performing but cheaper GT PP2 will still choose the GT350, because it's a GT350 and not just a GT. That distinction is there and needs to be considered.

Maybe it's the nameplate, the design, the soundtrack, all of the above? But I can tell you that I for one, if I were in the market for a new toy, would take GT350 over an equal performing GT PP2.

[ron scubadiver]

What this tells me is the Z28 will be positioned right up against the GT 350 and GT 350R.

[SpeedIsLife]

The GT350R HAS defeated the Z/28. If you need these tests provided they can be linked.

Ford has repeatedly said they don't release Ring times for a number of reasons.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

The GT350R HAS defeated the Z/28. If you need these tests provided they can be linked.

Ford has repeatedly said they don't release Ring times for a number of reasons.

It also lost at the Lightning Lap. A course where it should have won soundly. I never said it hasn't defeated it either. Just the published tests have not been all victories.