[TrackClub]

I'd add that there is a common "wisdom" that more expensive/aftermarket stuff HAS to be better than stock. That's incorrect imo. Case in point 1LE vs Z/28. As to Penske vs Bilstein: it all depends. My buddy swapped a stock T1 suspension for full Penske suspension (needed a small mortgage) and gained 0.5 seconds on a 1:30 track. For a racer that might make sense, for a track rat it makes zero sense as the only difference will be a MUCH lighter wallet.

[Ryephile]

Ok, your whole post contradicts itself. It reads like you're trying really hard to discount this controller. You have some kind of personal beef with DSC?

0.5 seconds can easily be the difference between first place and last place. So saying "it depends" and "makes zero sense" sounds more like a rationalization for you personally rather than understanding how this controller can help others who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Ok, your whole post contradicts itself. It reads like you're trying really hard to discount this controller. You have some kind of personal beef with DSC?

0.5 seconds can easily be the difference between first place and last place. So saying "it depends" and "makes zero sense" sounds more like a rationalization for you personally rather than understanding how this controller can help others who are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Zero beef. And yes for racing even a marginal difference in pace can make a difference. But unless somebody is really schooled in suspension set up and tuning, the results will indeed "depend" and may actually be worse. Not even pro NASCAR crew chiefs with multi mil budgets always get it right, eh?
So yes, it very much "depends" IMO especially if tuning is required based on application, track, tires etc.

EDIT: it will also depend if a driver is skilled enough to push the car enough to actually see any pace difference. Hence my previous suggestion to spend $ on fresher tires and seat time as a guaranteed way of gaining pace. Vs complex tech which requires complex knowledge to yield benefits. That's all.

EDIT2: actually I should add this: not a beef per se, but a concern based on what happened to a forum member's car (you're aware of the thread).

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

...EDIT: it will also depend if a driver is skilled enough to push the car enough to actually see any pace difference. Hence my previous suggestion to spend $ on fresher tires and seat time as a guaranteed way of gaining pace. Vs complex tech which requires complex knowledge to yield benefits. That's all.
...

Ok, we're on the same page. Personally, I see the benefit of the tunability. For me it's akin to the difference between an engine canned tune versus a custom dyno engine tune on your exact setup.

I also agree that unless the buyer is acutely aware of the knobs at their disposal, they'll likely make the suspension work worse. This is not a beginner's "my first suspension mod" option. This is cutting edge advanced stuff. For the guys that don't already know they can benefit from some additional front end low-speed compression damping, this isn't for them.

[glamcem]

I considered this option to better match the R comp tires (or slicks) with the suspension calibration as our cars are tuned to work with street tires (not like the Z07 package on the Vettes that could work with the Cup 2s) . However, when OEM setup comes with more aggressive MRC calibration and sticky rubbers they also change the spring rates, stabilizer bars, bushings..etc, In other words, change only 1-2 things in the system in the equation may not be enough to take the car to its full potential. The reason why I now consider the Multimatics (full ZL1 1LE kit actually) now

I just don't like the idea of having a suspension with more aggressive damper settings while leaving the spring rates and others things unchanged.

When it comes to suspension mods, I am surprised when people claim that they can feel the effect of the smallest change they make. Say for instance a small brace under the car ! I have been tracking my cars for years but I still cannot tell the difference on those small changes unless it's something really noticeable (annoying understeer, rubbing etc) Maybe I should have my butt dyno/gyroscope checked because I cannot tell the difference

I see my lap times fluctuate even more than a full second on a different sessions on the same day so that half a second "improvement" can be anything : worn tire, ambient temps, confidence level, or discomfort level due to burrito I ate a few hours ago

[Ryephile]

Note I mentioned changing to GC sleeves and spring rates to correspond to the tire change. That's where the DSC module really comes into its element. It'll be helpful to fine tune a completely stock car, but the flexibility for future combinations is where it's value lies, IMO.

To be completely honest, if your lap times are that varied on back-to-back clean laps (no overtaking, yellows, etc.), pushing forward with improving your driving skills is going to be a better investment than this suspension controller. This advice applies to the bulk of HPDE drivers. Finding an HPDE environment that maximizes your learning experience is also key; I was super impressed with NASA Great Lakes' HPDE program that I enjoyed last month. Everyone learns differently and its important to find what works specifically with you.

Chassis braces are almost never big enough changes to actually help, especially on modern cars. On something like a Miata, the chassis is so flimsy that an FM Butterfly brace and a roll cage makes an indirect improvement. The result is the car is more consistent and communicative; it doesn't directly translate to quicker lap times, but indirectly because the driver is more confident and better informed.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Note I mentioned changing to GC sleeves and spring rates to correspond to the tire change. That's where the DSC module really comes into its element. It'll be helpful to fine tune a completely stock car, but the flexibility for future combinations is where it's value lies, IMO.

To be completely honest, if your lap times are that varied on back-to-back clean laps (no overtaking, yellows, etc.), pushing forward with improving your driving skills is going to be a better investment than this suspension controller. This advice applies to the bulk of HPDE drivers. Finding an HPDE environment that maximizes your learning experience is also key; I was super impressed with NASA Great Lakes' HPDE program that I enjoyed last month. Everyone learns differently and its important to find what works specifically with you.

Chassis braces are almost never big enough changes to actually help, especially on modern cars. On something like a Miata, the chassis is so flimsy that an FM Butterfly brace and a roll cage makes an indirect improvement. The result is the car is more consistent and communicative; it doesn't directly translate to quicker lap times, but indirectly because the driver is more confident and better informed.

not "back-to-back", I said on different sessions here in PNW, ambient temps can fluctuate between 10-15 degrees between morning and noon sessions so it's not uncommon to see a full second (or even more) difference between lap times.

My lap times are pretty consistent within the same session unless I am not familiar with a different tire/suspension setup and getting to know to learn its new true potential/limits with the change

My point was, unless someone alters a suspension setting on the same day (in our case, same session), it's very hard to tell what contributes and what amount. Maybe in different locations where ambient temps are bit more steady this would not be a case

[glamcem]

that's where the GM's R&D comes in place, their claims on the advancements are data proven and a result of a more scientific approach . We know those changes made to the ZL1 1LE makes a whopping 3 seconds in a 3 min course (or almost 16 seconds at Nurburgring) so I trust the OEM solution more than anything else

[TrackClub]

Ryephile, I never thought we were not on the same page, albeit I have a much less scientific way of presenting my thoughts - that's for certain.

Cem, don't forget TIRES and aero played a large role in ZL1 1LE being 3 seconds faster. Throw slicks on any car and it will be seconds (vs fractions of same) faster on a decent length track.
And those Goodyear Cups are near slicks that's for damn sure, 100 tread rating notwithstanding. Just like G3s are not "street" tires notwithstanding their 220 rating. That's based on how they grip vs NT01 and how much rubber I have left after 6 days.

The main "issue" I have with changes to electronics is warranty. As we all know, electronics can and do break from time to time. Could be a loose wire, etc. Personally, I wouldn't like to find myself in between GM and a 3rd party in such a situation, with an undrivable car (potentially).
Secondly, it would be prudent for a vendor to use fewer flashy words (they make stock 1LE sound like it is a complete turd handling wise, which in itself raises flags for me as this car is superbly balanced stock) and instead provide some base line track results, which unfortunately that autox "win" article failed to do.

[Sleeks]

I've pretty certain I'll be picking this up over the winter. The porsche guys rave and have raved about these things forever, as have the corvette guys. It comes preloaded with tunes for the car so you don't have to know how to tune it if you don't want to.

This is as easy as pie to install/un-install so that shouldn't worry anyone and GM can't deny your warranty for this unless this breaks your suspension.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

...The main "issue" I have with changes to electronics is warranty.....

Understandable position. The target customer for this kind of module are likely quite aware of the risks and willing to accept them. Those of us hanging onto the warranty for dear life are scared to even click this thread.

[LibertyHill]

Originally Posted by Sleeks

I've pretty certain I'll be picking this up over the winter. The Porsche guys rave and have raved about these things forever, as have the corvette guys. It comes preloaded with tunes for the car so you don't have to know how to tune it if you don't want to.

This is as easy as pie to install/un-install so that shouldn't worry anyone and GM can't deny your warranty for this unless this breaks your suspension.

Same here. I'd like to simply up the damping rates to account for the Eibachs and lower ride height.

[rfopt]

The few long threads about this on that one corvette forum which includes dialogue from the DSC rep are very interesting. The algorithms used in the DSC controller appear to be more sophisticated than the OEM controller. Some even report better ride quality in some situations.

[TrackClub]

Bulletin boards are where myths are born and where manufacturers now conduct very active marketing efforts. Per their official website, the controller only is best suited for DD cars with an occasional DE event. For me that's a waste of $1400+ as I find Touring mode superb for DD.
There is no mention of preset tunes just that it works with OEM settings.
For track they recommend swapping suspension pieces and presumably THEN a user gains access to customization per track, tire, weather, etc. No mention of pre-set tunes here either, but perhaps that's the solution where such would apply as not everyone is a NASCAR crew chief
No price given for THAT solution, except for "please call" which I translate to: a LOT but let us convince you it is worth it while we have you on the phone. And perhaps it is to some and it isn't for others. And indeed there are folks that will just continue to mod a car until they buy a new one and then start over. And that's fine too as we live in a free country and it is legal to sell and market just about anything as long as one does not make false promises. The only thing I could possibly measure is a lap time. Everything else public is absolutely unable to measure and what they feel with their asses is purely subjective.
EDIT: for me OEM calibration in Track mode is just fine as the suspension is largely responsible for a 1LE to be faster at Laguna vs Z/28 (with stickier rubber, more power and trick DSSV shocks). But clearly some will want more and that's fine. But according to the website, just a controller alone doesn't make any such promise. To the contrary: it seems it is focused on DD vs track duty. This is assuming I read all the words on the website properly. If not, I stand to be corrected and educated.