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Old 05-16-2018, 07:19 PM   #2143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Serious question, if Camaro really is the retail sales king, why is it's resale value awful? I know typically cars that usually end up in a lot of fleets normally have terrible resale values (Example Fusion) You would think that it would hold its value a little better. Was going to ask that in another thread were people asked why the lease rates were terrible and everyone pointed to the terrible resale values.
You know the source of the retail, fleet and average transaction price. If?

I checked KBB cost of ownership and Camaro does hold its value a little better than Mustang, Challenger and BMW 230i. It appears all the Pony’s and luxury coupes/sedans take a pretty hard hit in the first three years. I’m no expert.

In this example I just selected Camaro SS coupe and it gave the Mustang and Challenger example. I added the BMW just to see how it looked. I made no attempt to change or add options.

FYI - you can look and the depreciation broken out from the 5-year for each and it looks similar
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:56 PM   #2144
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Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
Ford designed the Mustang to be cheap. The Camaro SS still rides very nice. Even in SS 1LE form, 10Best wrote its a comfortable daily driver.

Camaro outsold Mustang in total 2017 retail sales. Rental is Mustang's sales advantage for 2017.
Ford designed the mustang to be cheap? Do you work for ford? How can you claim this with absolutely no facts?

Every review that i’ve seen, including motortrend, claimed the mustang’s interior was better. They never claimed that it felt cheap other than those little toggle switches. They said the camaro had scratchy plastics all over. I am not a ford boy, but I don’t understand how you can make such a broad statement.

Just because one is setup as a more comfortable daily driver doesn’t mean it is cheap?

EDIT:
The reason i say this is because i recently rented a S550 with 42K miles. It was the GT model (i had to pay more), so i assumed the car had a tough life. It was still absolutely solid. It really looked good for it’s age. I haven’t had many rental cars with such high mileage,, so i was impressed.

Last edited by autocross; 05-16-2018 at 08:21 PM. Reason: more to say!
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:53 AM   #2145
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PP2 short review
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/...AE16BE94AA8861
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:43 AM   #2146
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So for the PP2 they use a linear steering setup instead of the variable one in the GT?
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:52 AM   #2147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
You know the source of the retail, fleet and average transaction price. If?

I checked KBB cost of ownership and Camaro does hold its value a little better than Mustang, Challenger and BMW 230i. It appears all the Pony’s and luxury coupes/sedans take a pretty hard hit in the first three years. I’m no expert.

In this example I just selected Camaro SS coupe and it gave the Mustang and Challenger example. I added the BMW just to see how it looked. I made no attempt to change or add options.

FYI - you can look and the depreciation broken out from the 5-year for each and it looks similar
Yeah they all tank terribly. I just see people complaining alot on here about the terrible resale value of the Camaro.(and Mustang guys on Mustang sites) Seems like with it being the retail king it should be better shouldnt it? Or at least one would think right?
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:03 PM   #2148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
Yeah they all tank terribly. I just see people complaining alot on here about the terrible resale value of the Camaro.(and Mustang guys on Mustang sites) Seems like with it being the retail king it should be better shouldnt it? Or at least one would think right?
Resale will always be limited on both cars because they both have very limited audiences. I’m a musician. There are a couple brands of bass guitars that are well known for being best in class, highly customized, and having horrible resale values. Sound familiar? Very limited and discerning customer base for instruments with that level of content and at their price points.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:09 PM   #2149
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Originally Posted by autocross View Post
So for the PP2 they use a linear steering setup instead of the variable one in the GT?
That's what I took away from it.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:38 PM   #2150
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If you want good retail I suggest a white civic with CVT and no other options.....
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:55 PM   #2151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtirocz View Post
Interesting MT quote for those that feel Corvette is holding the Camaro back.
Quote:
Plus there’s this: Close that gap (with the 1LE) the rest of the way, and the $44,590 GT really starts to threaten the $58,140 GT350’s place in the pecking order. Can’t have that.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:03 PM   #2152
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Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife View Post
That's what I took away from it.
That leaves me with mixed feelings. The car obviously responds well to suspension and tire improvements, but who knows how the GT’s steering would’ve responded to this.

I wonder if the linear steering will trickle down to the GT’s soon?
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:21 PM   #2153
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I wonder if the linear steering will trickle down to the GT’s soon?
It might eventually show up in the Ford Performance catalog. There is precedent for making more track-oriented EPAS units available across the parts counter.


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Old 05-17-2018, 08:19 PM   #2154
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
Resale will always be limited on both cars because they both have very limited audiences.
It's the same reason everyone gets massive discounts on brand new Camaros and Mustangs, but can barely get the dealer to come down a few hundred bucks on that 2.5 row SUV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotlap View Post
Interesting MT quote for those that feel Corvette is holding the Camaro back.
Is that really a secret? Corvette with 460hp, Camaro with 455... There's a very good reason those figures are what they are.
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:11 AM   #2155
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Originally Posted by autocross View Post
So for the PP2 they use a linear steering setup instead of the variable one in the GT?
Yes, but I highly suspect that the variable ratio steering had little to do with the steering issues that we saw in the last H2H the way that MotorTrend implies in the article. You can clearly see in those videos the rear end flopping over in the turns and especially the transitions. That will totally cause steering issues, since the initial turn in will set the front of the car in the turn, but the delayed response in the rear means the rear kicks over, and now the car is turning more than you initially set it with the wheel. Then you have to counter-steer a bit to readjust. This puts a large amount of vagueness in the steering, but that effect will be felt mostly under extreme transitions (like when you are on a road course). On the street in normal driving, it may not be nearly as noticeable. A stiffer rear sway bar would fix much of the issues of the PP1 in that regard. You have to have the front and rear suspension react in the same time, or else you will run into this situation. You can see from Ford's website...

http://performance.ford.com/enthusia...ce-pack-2.html

...that for the PP2 the rear stabilizer bar stiffness was increased 67% whereas the front was only stiffened 12%. When I saw that, I felt that Ford would have fixed the issues that MT documented in the H2H. Of course, the proof is in the pudding, so I want to see another H2H.

As for the variable ratio steering, I love it in the Camaro, and it certainly doesn't cause any steering issues there. In fact, I find that I don't ever have to move my hands from 10 and 2 on a road course, because I don't come near where I would have to cross my arms under the tightest turns, but on the high speed straights, the steering is not too twitchy. It also helps a ton for me because I have the auto transmission, and the paddle shifters are mounted on the steering wheel. Since I don't have to ever move my hand placement on the steering wheel, they are always in position to shift. For manual guys, it would matter less. But, it's not the variable ratio steering that was the problem. It was the rear end flopping around after the front set the turn.
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:30 AM   #2156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
A stiffer rear sway bar would fix much of the issues of the PP1 in that regard. You have to have the front and rear suspension react in the same time, or else you will run into this situation. You can see from Ford's website...

http://performance.ford.com/enthusia...ce-pack-2.html

...that for the PP2 the rear stabilizer bar stiffness was increased 67% whereas the front was only stiffened 12%. When I saw that, I felt that Ford would have fixed the issues that MT documented in the H2H.
I would certainly assume that the matter of %critical damping (at both ends) differed as well - doing so should be easier with Magneride when you're still trying to provide street ride quality acceptable to more than just the hardcore few. Proper damping for track-level use would go a long way toward achieving the composure that was missing in the PP1.


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