[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Sesiom Summers

my Idea came up after reading on Internet rumors of the Camaro Brand dying Out, after that I started an investigation on whats going on with the car, and Designing what could be a Camaro 7th gen to fix the sale issue


First off I began my investigation by talking with Camaro, general Automotive fans, and average Joe people on what they think the current camaro is Failing.


Average Joe Answer on a 2018 2SS A8:



48% think the visibility was the main issue

33% Think the main issue with the car was the Design of the car (most of the people actually disliked the interior of being no use for a DD car)

13% think the Gas consumption was too high

6% think the main Issue with the car was the price being to high


if you had the money would you buy this car? NO 73% YES 27%
-------------------------------------------------------------

Other cars answer compared to the camaro 27%


Mustang GT 32%


Dodge Charger 25%


BMW M2 38%


AMG A45 50%


WRX 41%

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current owners: Sport Cars , Mustang, Dodge Camaro/Firebirth (Any generation)
on a 2019 ZL1 A10

35% think the main Issue with the car was the price being to high

34% think the visibility was the main issue

22% think the Gas consumption was too high

9% Think the main issue with the car was the Design of the car (most of the people actually disliked the overall look of the car)

if you had the money would you buy this car? NO 58% YES 42%
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Other cars answer compared to the camaro 42%

Upcoming Mustang GT500 52%

Dodge Charger Hellcat 38%

BMW M5 57%

AMG S63 60%

WRX STI 24%

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Average Teenager High School Answer:
on a 2018 base 4cyl A8

55% think the lack of v8 entry car was the main issue

17% think the visibility was the main issue

17% think the price was too high

11% Think the main issue with the car was the Design of the car (most of the people actually disliked the interior of being no use for a DD car)

if you had the money would you buy this car? NO 83% YES 17%
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Other cars answer compared to the camaro 17%

Mustang base 17%

Dodge 5.7 V8 34%

BMW Serie 2 base 7%

Toyota 86 30%

Impreza base AWD 24%
----------------------------------------------------------------

based on this I began to work on a design not only for a new generation camaro but for a new Lineup designed to fix what each vehicle should aim their target Audience wile dealing with the main problems for the current camaro design



I began by searching sport cars similar to the camaro, I had the oportunity to ride on a first generation Fbody, modded to be a Prodaily car, this camaro had a 350 with Edelbrock pro efi 3, attached to a 4L85E, the car feel WAY smaller and compact compared to a 5th or 6th gen I also drived a 3th gen and my 2001 Z28, those cars fell so much nicer on trafic jams and city traffic compared to late 5th and 6th gens.


I knew what would my first Objective on the 7th gen art was. To make the car as compact the 1th gen felt


the biggest revelation was when I ride on a friend´s BMW 235 on my search of a small car that felt like the first generation camaro, the car is small an compact yet feels powerful and solid,



after having all those notes and information I began my design.


1 the car will be based on a mix between the 1Gen camaro/ 2018 2SS / BMW M2



2 The car I would design will be a Non SS V8 trim


3 This car would had some elements I liked from 3th 4th and 6th gen on a 1th gen shape DNA car:


Finally this is the Design I did for the Exterior.


this first variant is a Base trim level V8, designed for a smooth DD easy to maintain V8 experience for average Joe and Teenagers


this trim will NOT replace the 4 cylinder base trim level instead will be a variant of it.










the Interior is 2+3 seat with a larger interior and room for actual living beings on rear, to kinda solve the truck issue I made this car a hatchback design based on a 3th/4th /corvette Design, increasing the trunk Space, the engine will seat furder back, almost like a 4th gen camaro reducing size of the nose of the car an helping the wight distribution


the car size is way smaller compared to it's older brothers



the exterior or the car follow the design lines of the 69 widebody car and the best elements from the 5th and 6th gen cars including the return of the camaro gills and the introduction functional Air Ram based on the mail slot of the 5th gen camaro.



this car is powered by an LT based 350 v8 Engine with afm and start stop Option, doing 370 hp 380 torque/10 speed auto

MPG 19 city 25 highway


the interior Is cloth and a a screen with no radio but Apple car play and Android auto


to keep the price low as much as possible the rear suspension is a modern Live Rear axle with non performance brakes


security comes with 4 Airbags rear camera, and front impact sensor


price of this car would be around 29.000


this camaro would be an awesome DD car and a real alternative for the average Joe and Teenager, not design to be a track Killer car but more of a Dragstrip / DD car



Coming soon 4 cylinder, Hybrid, full Electric, SS and Z-28 variants for the 7thGen concept.

My mother had a brand new 86' Pontiac Firebird LE V8. It was a nice comfortable car but my 17 SS fits me like a glove compared to her firebird. The FB also had a high beltline as a remember it. The Camaro just fits better, handles and drives a lot better. But technology has come a long way.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Sesiom Summers

God.... and you think 26 MPG is good? an AMG C63 is doing the same with 503hp and 516 lb-ft besides city mpg is REALLY BAD and thats why the camaro SS is getting gas gluzzer import taxes overseas, ruining car sales overseas...



besides!!!


this concept is NOT about an SS BUT a base V8 trim designed to be a fun DD as fuel efficiency as possible, GM is failing trying to do a performance car out of every single variant out there... base cars should be aimed for something diferent.... funny how hard core guys do jokes like this "ohh this car is perfect, people who complain about bisibility are Pu**s, the car is light, y get AWESOME MPG!" then complain why GM didnt come up with any Idea to fix the Camaro sales that going to end up killing the car by mid/end 2020s if not sooner

AMG cost well over $100k. It should have an electric motor on each wheel and be getting 40mpg.

[KMPrenger]

Lol.

Good luck with this thread, but in the end it will end up not going much of anywhere.

Summers, I will commend you on the amount of effort you've put into this, but I think its not out of the realm of discussion to say actually making your design feasible for production is likely not possible.

I find it difficult to believe we can take nearly a foot off the wheelbase of the car, move the engine back further, shorten up the rear, and increase rear-seat room meaningfully all while having a fast slanting rear roofline allowing for sufficient headroom. Is there any car that currently exists that is that much smaller than a Camaro, but has several more inches of rear seat space, and room for a trunk? If there is, please share.

Number 7 talks about the extra space in the rear of the ATS coupe all while sharing the same chassis as Camaro, but forgets to mention the reason for the difference. The Camaro has always been a long hood short deck design. Without those traits, it would abandon what the Camaro has always been. The ATS on the other hand has a shorter front area, thus allowing the cockpit to sit further forward than Camaro, thus allowing more rear-legroom. If they want to reduce the hood on the Camaro x number of inches (all while having sufficient space for the engine-line up, retaining handling traits, and crash safety standards), then maybe they can put that space back into the cabin.

I'm not sure a car like the Camaro will ever sell in great numbers again. Maybe some day. But in my opinion the 7th gen needs:

- All new exterior design, but not necessarily a different chassis as the current one is amazing (I think we can consider the chassis part of this already done, as the next gen will likely ride on Alpha II)
- The belt-line dropped an inch or two, increasing visibility
- Lower cost of entry for the V8 (or V8 replacement) tier of cars. (although we know the vast majority of SS Camaros sold will not be base SS cars...lets be real. If we lowered the cost of the SS Camaro by 2 or 3 grand today, sales would not jump)
- An inch or two of better rear seat space while retaining nearly the same size and weight
- Better access to the trunk
- Acceptable but small improvement in straight line performance (via either power or weight or something) as compared to the 6th gen.
- No increase in cost
- Keep current 2.0 and V6 options (albeit with slight power bump) or dump the V6 (as much as I hate to say it) and give us a T4 with Mustang or better power figures.


That's it. We don't need to radically change the Camaro, or change it for the needs of the rest of the world. That's nonsense. If the above car just can't sell (assuming it has a generally likeable exterior and reasonable cost), then it might just be time to kill off the Camaro name once again.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Lol.

Good luck with this thread, but in the end it will end up not going much of anywhere.

Summers, I will commend you on the amount of effort you've put into this, but I think its not out of the realm of discussion to say actually making your design feasible for production is likely not possible.

I find it difficult to believe we can take nearly a foot off the wheelbase of the car, move the engine back further, shorten up the rear, and increase rear-seat room meaningfully all while having a fast slanting rear roofline allowing for sufficient headroom. Is there any car that currently exists that is that much smaller than a Camaro, but has several more inches of rear seat space, and room for a trunk? If there is, please share.

Number 7 talks about the extra space in the rear of the ATS coupe all while sharing the same chassis as Camaro, but forgets to mention the reason for the difference. The Camaro has always been a long hood short deck design. Without those traits, it would abandon what the Camaro has always been. The ATS on the other hand has a shorter front area, thus allowing the cockpit to sit further forward than Camaro, thus allowing more rear-legroom. If they want to reduce the hood on the Camaro x number of inches (all while having sufficient space for the engine-line up, retaining handling traits, and crash safety standards), then maybe they can put that space back into the cabin.

I'm not sure a car like the Camaro will ever sell in great numbers again. Maybe some day. But in my opinion the 7th gen needs:

- All new exterior design, but not necessarily a different chassis as the current one is amazing (I think we can consider the chassis part of this already done, as the next gen will likely ride on Alpha II)
- The belt-line dropped an inch or two, increasing visibility
- Lower cost of entry for the V8 (or V8 replacement) tier of cars. (although we know the vast majority of SS Camaros sold will not be base SS cars...lets be real. If we lowered the cost of the SS Camaro by 2 or 3 grand today, sales would not jump)
- An inch or two of better rear seat space while retaining nearly the same size and weight
- Better access to the trunk
- Acceptable but small improvement in straight line performance (via either power or weight or something) as compared to the 6th gen.
- No increase in cost
- Keep current 2.0 and V6 options (albeit with slight power bump) or dump the V6 (as much as I hate to say it) and give us a T4 with Mustang or better power figures.


That's it. We don't need to radically change the Camaro, or change it for the needs of the rest of the world. That's nonsense. If the above car just can't sell (assuming it has a generally likeable exterior and reasonable cost), then it might just be time to kill off the Camaro name once again.

As you know, I've been an advocate for a reinvented pony car for years, but in order to do that it would have to be a clean sheet design. It would not be possible to build the original Camaro today. It would not meet any of the required standards.

A clean sheet design would be very expensive. Alfa Romeo did it with their new Giulias and that cost billions. They have a long term plan which includes adding more dealerships, but it's going to take years before they begin to recoup that investment. GM isn't in that position anymore. They have to have a hit right out of the box, and that reality means they're reluctant to take the risks necessary to produce something truly new. Best they could do is a parts bin creation which is certainly doable, but it doesn't look like they care to even try.

I'm with you, unfortunately I don't see them being able to save the Camaro unless they get some new blood in the design group to address the issues that are holding it back from the success it used to have. They're blaming the marketplace saying customers don't want sedans anymore, but that's ignoring the vast numbers of sedans on the roads; sedans that are from other manufacturers besides GM and Ford. I've been specifically looking as I drive to work and back to see what's on the roads besides trucks and SUVs, and I'd say at least half the vehicles are sedans of one kind or another. The market is there, GM and Ford just don't seem to understand what the market wants, so rather than do what it takes to figure it out, they're just giving up.

I think the Camaro is pretty much locked in to whatever it's future is. A reinvented pony car would have to be given another name. Let the Camaro's be the high performance models. They would have to get it down price-wise to around $25k in order for it to hit the sales numbers it would need to be profitable, and the cost of developing it would probably be too high for them to take that risk. As I stated, Alfa Romeo's effort cost billions and produced a phenomenal car, but that car starts at $39k and goes up. Granted it has more electronics and sophistication than the space shuttle, but that was their market. A reinvented pony car market would be a different buyer.

I still think it can be done, but I don't expect it will be done by either GM or Ford. Ford has already abandoned the sedan market and GM seems to be following their lead in that. Most likely the Japanese or Chinese will be the ones to come up with the right package, and when sales volumes begin to shift to that more affordable option compared to an SUV or truck, neither GM or Ford will be able to get back into that game and compete.

Electric vehicle technology is nowhere near ready to replace the combustion engine, and won't be for awhile. Battery technology has to improve significantly for that to happen, and that's going to take years. I think GM and Ford are making a mistake, but what do I know? Only time will tell.

[GroundhogSS]

Originally Posted by ItsChristianInHD

I had this speculation too. I had a completely wild thought that GM would bring back a older muscle car to compete with the challenger. Maybe the Monte Carlo nameplate.
Cheaper Muscle Car- Monte Carlo.
America’s sports car- Camaro.
America’s super car- Corvette.

Although that’s really reaching and I 100% doubt it would ever happen.

I think the muscle car should be a Malibu SS.

[rburke76]

2000-2009 monte carlo shares same wheelbase with 2016-2019 camaro. 110.7 inches....how can monte carlo have bigger trunk space, and room for two adults in the back seat.and a no problem with visibility and beltline.....yet meet all government standards. camaro has trouble doing that...I think the monte carlo also had a long hood, short rear end...not looking for arguments, just how was it done meeting all standards? just curious. any engineers out there?

[18ss376]

I hate hatchbacks, had a 1986 & broke the giant back glass. The price & install about killed me. Glad my '18 has a trunk like my old '69 had.

[AZCamaroFan]

Originally Posted by rburke76

2000-2009 monte carlo shares same wheelbase with 2016-2019 camaro. 110.7 inches....how can monte carlo have bigger trunk space, and room for two adults in the back seat.and a no problem with visibility and beltline.....yet meet all government standards. camaro has trouble doing that...I think the monte carlo also had a long hood, short rear end...not looking for arguments, just how was it done meeting all standards? just curious. any engineers out there?

similar wheel base but it was a foot longer. the Camaro6 has very little overhang beyond the wheels

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Doc

Electric vehicle technology is nowhere near ready to replace the combustion engine, and won't be for awhile. Battery technology has to improve significantly for that to happen, and that's going to take years. I think GM and Ford are making a mistake, but what do I know? Only time will tell.

I'm not sure what you mean by "nowhere near ready". The Tesla Model 3 is now a top 10 selling car.

Chevrolet and Jaguar are already in the market. Audi, Mercedes and Porsche are about to introduce new models and VW is in the final phases of the "sub $30,000 EV".

The technology is there. Infrastructure for charging is behind, but that will catch up quickly.

I came to the realization that I fill up my Lacrosse every 250 miles or so...…………….now the current range from the big battery EVs. It's just down to charging time now and current technology can get you 80% of your range in 8 minutes. Tesla and Porsche/Audi have ultra fast charging and that's only going to get better. The need to have plug where you park will be a non issue.

And it will only get better from there. ICE? Tiny incremental changes chasing emissions and FE are all that's left.

I'm not sure why you think battery technology needs to improve significantly from 250 miles and 8 minute recharges. It will improve, but more than likely instead of more range (not really needed) it will focus on cost, mass and rechargeability. As volumes increase, simple economics suggest battery costs will come down.

There is still a big hurdle, and that's simply the mindset of the customer. And I'm one of those. Even though it's twice a year, I like to drive on vacation. Being able to stop at almost every freeway exit and get fuel is a big paradigm to have to break.

Where GM is maybe making the mistake is pushing in early. But my guess is they have it covered.

When transportation is simply summoning a conveyance on your phone and having it get you where you want to be on time, low cost then making cars and trucks that inspire driving passion will fade away. You will simply click on what size and level of comfort you want and off you go.

I don't look forward to that future, but it's where we seem to be headed. I keep hearing more and more of people in their 20s that simply don't have a drivers license. Uber? Uber eats? Grocery store delivery? It boggles the mind. But people don't view owning and driving a car or truck the same way any more. And there are too many people trying to make money on the convenience of not driving anywhere.

And EV propulsion is an enabler to that end.

And for where GM is going? Well making the car or the sensors isn't the biggest deal. It's the integration and software that will define the winner in this race.

Not tomorrow and probably not next year. But it's coming.

[maraging]

Id love to see the actual people surveyed lol. The average teenager answer has me laughing.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm not sure what you mean by "nowhere near ready". The Tesla Model 3 is now a top 10 selling car.

Chevrolet and Jaguar are already in the market. Audi, Mercedes and Porsche are about to introduce new models and VW is in the final phases of the "sub $30,000 EV".

The technology is there. Infrastructure for charging is behind, but that will catch up quickly.

I came to the realization that I fill up my Lacrosse every 250 miles or so...…………….now the current range from the big battery EVs. It's just down to charging time now and current technology can get you 80% of your range in 8 minutes. Tesla and Porsche/Audi have ultra fast charging and that's only going to get better. The need to have plug where you park will be a non issue.

And it will only get better from there. ICE? Tiny incremental changes chasing emissions and FE are all that's left.

I'm not sure why you think battery technology needs to improve significantly from 250 miles and 8 minute recharges. It will improve, but more than likely instead of more range (not really needed) it will focus on cost, mass and rechargeability. As volumes increase, simple economics suggest battery costs will come down.

There is still a big hurdle, and that's simply the mindset of the customer. And I'm one of those. Even though it's twice a year, I like to drive on vacation. Being able to stop at almost every freeway exit and get fuel is a big paradigm to have to break.

Where GM is maybe making the mistake is pushing in early. But my guess is they have it covered.

When transportation is simply summoning a conveyance on your phone and having it get you where you want to be on time, low cost then making cars and trucks that inspire driving passion will fade away. You will simply click on what size and level of comfort you want and off you go.

I don't look forward to that future, but it's where we seem to be headed. I keep hearing more and more of people in their 20s that simply don't have a drivers license. Uber? Uber eats? Grocery store delivery? It boggles the mind. But people don't view owning and driving a car or truck the same way any more. And there are too many people trying to make money on the convenience of not driving anywhere.

And EV propulsion is an enabler to that end.

And for where GM is going? Well making the car or the sensors isn't the biggest deal. It's the integration and software that will define the winner in this race.

Not tomorrow and probably not next year. But it's coming.

The only reason Tesla isn't an abandoned factory is because it has been and is being subsidized by the taxpayers. That's not a successful business model unless we plan on government (taxpayers) subsidizing the entire industry for EV. We're essentially still in the honeymoon phase of electric vehicles and have yet to see the longer term issues, such as what do you do with the massive batteries these things use when they're no longer usable? There's also the issue of cobalt which the batteries need. Supply is limited and there are a lot of issues with the largest source which is the DRC that has political, child labor abuse issues, etc. Right now there isn't an operational cobalt mine in the U.S., although there's one in the works to be opened and producing in Idaho (Idaho Cobalt Project) but it won't be producing until 2020. The more we start to switch to EV, the greater stress that places on existing battery technology. What happens when the cost of batteries starts to drive up the cost of vehicles? It's going to happen; the only reason prices are more or less stable now is because those who need it have bought ahead a few years, but it won't take long before demand will outstrip supply. Then what? Cobalt is used in all the batteries of every cell phone, and laptop, and tablet, and so-on. When I say it's nowhere near ready, I'm talking about being ready for the demand that's coming. Battery technology needs to improve for it to be ready for the mass use in vehicles they're projecting.

Your comment about recharging stations is also quite important. They'll have them in the big cities, but what about the less populated areas? What kind of strain is that going to put on our electric grid? How are we generating the electricity that's being pulled at a charging station? Right now it's hydro, coal or nuclear as the main sources. Wind sources didn't turn out to be so good; maintenance costs were sky high. Solar has possibilities, but what is used to make solar panels, and what are the long-term costs for that?

I'm with you; I don't like what I see coming in the future either. The human race is reproducing at an alarming rate. In 1962 world population was 3 billion people, and that was after however many years the human race has existed. 56 years later we're over 8 billion and growing. The demand that's placing on our infrastructures, resources and supplies is staggering, and it's only getting worse. I don't have a reasonable solution for that; I wish I did.

Because electric vehicles are a small niche right now, the real problems going large scale haven't appeared yet. Unless they find some way to create batteries that use a more plentiful resource, we're going to have issues trying to make a billion batteries that can power that many vehicles.

[CCG Garnet Red]

I don't get some of the changes some of you suggest, but to each his own. It's a sports car and a very good one. I have never worried about back seat room in any gen Camaro that I have owned, even when 70% of all vehicles were coupes. I know times change, as in the current SUV/Cue/pickup craze. Part of the problem is the total lack of Camaro advertising by Chevrolet. I know, a version of the new Equinox ad where the 360 degree cameras save the "not actors, real people", from getting out among the alligators. So how about a commercial showing how every Camaro from I4 to ZL1 can outrun the alligators, (not actors, real alligators)?

[CCG Garnet Red]

Originally Posted by ItsChristianInHD

I had this speculation too. I had a completely wild thought that GM would bring back a older muscle car to compete with the challenger. Maybe the Monte Carlo nameplate.
Cheaper Muscle Car- Monte Carlo.
America’s sports car- Camaro.
America’s super car- Corvette.

Although that’s really reaching and I 100% doubt it would ever happen.

The 2000 -2009 was also FWD and quit selling. Who wants a FWD coupe of any kind today? Sports cars today are niche vehicles, never to return to the sales volumes of the Pickup/SUV/Cue craze.

[Sesiom Summers]

Update 12/29/18!!!!



First renders of my design: WORK IN PROGRESS!!


Im FAR from finish , the body is missing several design lines and fixes but this is a good start, and the Interior is in its blockout status...



the car actually looks about the same size as a 6gen, but compared to a same size 3D 6gen scanned from a real car I use to design parts the car is about a foot short.


for the people who say Im wasting my time... Im doing this because I can... and I like it! Im on my vacations so I have plenty of time, Im well aware this design will mostly never going to reach GM but still, its a way for me to keep improving my 3D and design skills and working on what I love to do