[DannyB]

Originally Posted by Tran

Via Road & Track

Attachment 820603


10 Things to Know About Ford and GM's 10-Speed Automatic

The new 10-speed gearbox will appear in the Ford Raptor and the Chevy Camaro ZL1. It's a high-performance box with a lot of gears.

This new 10-speed rear-drive transmission is the result of collaboration between Ford and General Motors, although Ford had the engineering lead on it. The companies also are jointly developing a nine-speed transverse automatic for front-drive cars and crossovers; GM is leading the engineering on that effort. Not long after Ford starts cranking out F-150s with these transmissions, Chevrolet will launch it in the 2017 Camaro ZL1, coupled to the 650-hp, supercharged 6.2-liter LT4 engine from the Corvette Z06. With a torque capacity of at least 650 lb-ft, this first version of the transmission is plenty beefy to handle that track-ready machine, as well as the Ford Raptor, with its uprated 3.5-liter EcoBoost V-6 making upwards of 450 horsepower—maybe more. We would expect that soon afterward, we will see this design spawn a family of 10-speed automatics that are smaller and lighter to suit less-hunky rear-drive machines in the Ford and GM families.


1. Packing More Gears Into the Same Ratio Spread

As you'd expect, Ford's new 10R80 10-speed automatic has a wide spread of ratios between first and tenth gear. However, the overall span of 7.384 is not the widest in the business—not by a long shot. There are at least five conventional automatics, including some eight-speeds, with a wider spread. The widest is the front-drive ZF 9HP series with nine gears, as found in the Jeep Cherokee, with a total spread of 9.819. Porsche's PDK seven-speed dual-clutch gearbox used in the Panamera goes even further with a maximum spread of 10.119. According to Kevin Norris, Ford's manager of the 10R programs, in the applications planned for this transmission, extensive simulations indicated that there was no benefit in a span wider than 7.4. And with a top gear that isn't excessively tall, it's possible to stay in that gear more often at highway speeds, something that we've found nearly impossible to achieve with the Jeep Cherokee's tall ninth gear.


2. More Gears to Keep the Engine in its Ideal Rev Range

Arithmetic dictates that if the 10-speed transmission does not have a particularly wide overall ratio spread, than the individual gear spacing must be fairly close. Sure enough, with the 10R80, the average rpm drop during a shift is only 20 percent, while it's 25 percent in the ZF eight-speed found in cars across the industry, and 32 percent in Porsche's seven-speed PDK. This new 10-speed has closer ratios, on average, than the version of the seven-speed PDK in the latest 911 GT3. The tight ratios keep the engine closer to peak power during full-throttle acceleration and, according to Norris, provide for smoother operation when towing a trailer, a matter of some importance in the F-150 world.


3. Close-Ratio Overdrives

Tenth gear in the 10R80 transmission has an overdrive ratio of 0.636. Ninth is 0.689. That's a drop of only eight percent, making for a nearly imperceptible 10-to-9 downshift when needed. While Norris promises that tenth gear is a genuinely useful gear in the F-150 and the transmission will stay in that gear over a wide range of highway conditions, the close ninth ratio helps when the truck is heavily loaded or towing a substantial amount. The transmission also offers "Tow/Haul" and "Sport" modes, which also usefully employ the ninth gear—almost as an alternative top gear. Eighth gear also is an overdrive, with a ratio of 0.854.


4. It Keeps the Revs Very Low, to Keep the EPA Happy

Though much of the initial hype about this transmission centers on its installation in Ford's upcoming new Raptor and the Camaro ZL1, it will first go on sale in the 2017 F-150 that's coupled to the upgraded version of the Ford 3.5-liter EcoBoost V6, which now makes 375 horsepower and 470 lb-ft of torque. The 10R80 will be standard equipment with that engine and its close ratios nicely match the engine's copious low-rpm torque. On the EPA city cycle, the F-150 with this powertrain never sees engine rpm exceed 1450 rpm. In other words, plan to get much worse real-world fuel economy. Although, when you step into it, Ford claims the transmission and engine controls coordinate carefully to avoid situations where the engine comes onto boost exactly when the transmission downshifts, thereby providing a larger jolt of acceleration than the driver wanted.


5. It's Nearly the Same Size and Weight as the Six Speed

Thanks to the use of four simple planetary gearsets, controlled by six clutches, the 10R80 is only about an inch longer and four pounds heavier than the 6F55 transmission currently used with the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V6. This required very careful attention to detail in the design of each component. For example, the torque converter in the transmission (pictured above) is about 0.4 inch thinner and two pounds lighter than the one in its predecessor. Part of the weight reduction comes from an aluminum stator support, a formerly cast-iron part. In fact, the new transmission has no cast-iron parts whatsoever.


6. It's All About the Hydraulics

The clutches in an automatic transmission are hydraulically actuated and controlled, so the new transmission relies on two special pumps to provide the necessary hydraulic muscle. The main pump is an off-axis design with variable displacement. Removing the pump from the transmission's main shaft reduces overall length; the variable-displacement capability means that the pump's output can be adjusted to the transmission's needs, reducing the power that the pump absorbs. A second, electrically driven hydraulic pump allows idle-stop capability. The electrically driven pump is both more reliable and more compact than a hydraulic accumulator, while using very little power.


7. This Ain't Your Granddad's Automatic Transmission Fluid

Just as engine oil seems to get thinner every year, so does transmission fluid, in search of reduced friction. Back when four-speed automatics were the norm, transmission fluid had a viscosity of around 7.5 centistokes. The Ford six-speed uses fluid with a viscosity of 6.0 centistokes. The new 10-speed drops that to about 4.5 centistokes, reducing both friction and the workload of the hydraulic pumps. The new fluid is called Mercon ULV, and is planned to last the lifetime of the transmission, aided by a new filter that has two levels of high-efficiency media and a pleated design with much greater area than the filter in the current six-speed transmission. It also helps that the transmissions are assembled in factories that set new industry standards for cleanliness.


8. Shifts Faster Than Porsche's PDK, Says Ford

With a low first-gear ratio of 4.696, the torque converter basically aids in a smooth launch, then quickly locks up and stays that way. Shifting is controlled by the six clutches, which engage and disengage two at a time to swap cogs swiftly and smoothly. These shifts do not require the torque converter to unlock, which would decrease efficiency. These clutches are controlled by integrated solenoid valves, which respond more quickly than the usual two-piece designs. The system has also been designed to minimize the length of the hydraulic passages and optimize the clutch designs for quick fill times—all in the interest of faster and more responsive clutch operation. Although we're skeptical, and these kinds of claims are heavily dependent on exactly what constitutes the start and end of a shift, Ford claims transmission shifts 26 to 36 percent more quickly than Porsche's PDK, at least through fourth gear. The transmission can also perform large, multi-gear downshifts—directly from tenth to fifth, or ninth to fourth—smoothly and rapidly. There's also a one-way clutch, which smoothly and cleanly disengages the transmission when rolling to a stop, avoiding a potentially jarring 3-1 downshift.


9. It's All About Minimizing Friction

In addition to the efficient hydraulic pumps and the low-viscosity fluid, there are other measures to reduce the transmission's mechanical friction. For example, instead of flat thrust washers, the 10R80 uses ones fitted with radial needle bearings, replacing sliding friction with the lower rolling variety. Even the multi-plate clutches get tiny springs which push the plates apart to minimize their drag when they are not engaged. As a result, the new transmission is more efficient in each of its gears than the six-speed it replaces.


10. What Kind of MPG Improvement? That Depends

For all of these improvements in friction reduction, low-viscosity fluid, and the multiplicity of gears, Ford is only claiming very modest fuel economy improvements for the new transmission. Compared with the existing six-speed automatic, Ford suggests a 3-percent-to-4-percent gain—barely a single mpg in the case of the F-150. That's very odd, because when ZF introduced its eight-speed automatic, the company claimed an 11-percent fuel-economy improvement over its existing six-speed automatic. Aisin claimed a 6.6-percent-to-7.0 percent improvement with its eight-speed automatics, while Mercedes suggests a gain of up to six percent when going from the 7G-Tronic to the 9G-Tronic. Ford is adding four gears rather than two, yet only expecting half as much benefit. Perhaps Ford is engaging in a serious bit of under-promising here. We would be shocked to see less than 2-mpg-to-3 mpg of improvement once the '17 F-150 is certified—especially because the truck also gets that improved version of the 3.5-liter EcoBoost V6.

11. Will a ZL1 or Raptor ever receive the tranny or is it vaporware?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DannyB

11. Will a ZL1 or Raptor ever receive the tranny or is it vaporware?

Huh?

Of course the ZL1 will....?

Originally Posted by Nick S

I think this is an important detail to note. One reason why automatics usually took longer to shift is because the TCM would need to unlock the torque converter first, then shift gears, then lock it up again if conditions were met. Being able to keep the torque converter locked essentially makes it a direct drive connection as if there were no torque converter involved. Based on this I can believe that it would be possible for the new 10 speed transmissions to shift faster than a PDK.

I agree completely!!!!

A constantly-locked TC will make the driving experience feel as direct as a DCT or true manual.

Of all the information in that deep-dive...I think I'm most thrilled about this tidbit.

On another note...they very clearly interviewed a Ford representative for this article, which is fine...but I would've liked to know more ZL1-specific bits of information. I'm sure we'll hear more, soon...

[b4z]

I agree 100% with paragraph 1. He nailed the ratio spread and he nailed the top gear ratio. You can't just keep making top gear taller and taller. Get the engine out of its tq band and its gonna start hunting for gears. Our '04 tahoe will drop to third at the slightest hint of a hill. Chrysler is having a hell of a problem with its fwd 9 speed applications. Whereas the 8 spd rwd application seems to do well on hilly terrain at hwy speeds.

[DannyB]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Huh?

Of course the ZL1 will....?

It is a joke due to the fact that GM/Chevy hyped the shit out of it and then pulled it back. They should have done their due diligence before getting people hyped up about it and then saying, "Hey, you can now order the ZL1, but **** you for 4-6 months if you want the transmission we hyped you all up about because we misled you into believing that it was ready."

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DannyB

It is a joke due to the fact that GM/Chevy hyped the shit out of it and then pulled it back. They should have done their due diligence before getting people hyped up about it and then saying, "Hey, you can now order the ZL1, but **** you for 4-6 months if you want the transmission we hyped you all up about because we misled you into believing that it was ready."

Ah.

Right...you're on the "bait and switch", team.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by DannyB

It is a joke due to the fact that GM/Chevy hyped the shit out of it and then pulled it back. They should have done their due diligence before getting people hyped up about it and then saying, "Hey, you can now order the ZL1, but **** you for 4-6 months if you want the transmission we hyped you all up about because we misled you into believing that it was ready."

Oh please.

If they hadn't said a single word about the 10 speed until just before ordering begins next year, people would scream bloody murder that GM was keeping it a secret from the world in order to push manual sales. Not only that, but they'd then get accused of scheming to screw over those manual buyers by 'cheapening' the ZL1 by offering an automatic just months later. Is that train of thought ridiculous? Of course. So is getting angry at GM for fixing a problem before it goes into production. And that also ignores all the people that would jump ship & get a Challenger Hellcat since GM hadn't made mention of the ZL1 automatic.

Or would you be happier if they still delayed the automatic, and simply didn't mention that its the better performer until after people started buying manuals.

Or maybe delay both the automatic and the manual just so that they're released at the same time.

When problems crop up late in development, there is no 'good' solution. Even if something might satisfy you personally, somebody else is going to get pissed off because of it. And you, as one random individual, are not any more important than some other random individual.

GM has already condensed the timeline from first showing to production from a year or so down to around 6 months for most of their 'production intent' cars. Thats as good as any automaker these days & better than many.

[NB2017ZL1]

Has GM "OFFICIALLY" come out and stated Q1 for the MXO 10 speed? Reason asking is I just saw an updated post Somewheres else stating March/ April Availabilty for the MXO 10 Speed.

I don't think anyone knows for certain when this tranny may come out. I guess it all depends on when the potential issues or supply issues resolve themselves ....

[Boilermaker128]

Let the people that are pissed vent. gm deserves to get egged on for the mistake, the less people making excuses for gm the quicker it's done with, arguing will just bring the issue to light even more.

Gm hyped the A10, and failed on the release, for reasons only known to them, however embarrassing it might be we won't know until later, which could be Q1 at best, Q2 most likely, and Q3/4 also a possibility.

[KLR ZL1]

Originally Posted by NB2017ZL1

Has GM "OFFICIALLY" come out and stated Q1 for the MXO 10 speed? Reason asking is I just saw an updated post Somewheres else stating March/ April Availabilty for the MXO 10 Speed.

I don't think anyone knows for certain when this tranny may come out. I guess it all depends on when the potential issues or supply issues resolve themselves ....

Why do say issues? We don't know this either. Could be they are getting the programming calibrated for normal driving since we all know it's awesome on the track. We will just have to wait and see.

[NB2017ZL1]

Originally Posted by KLR ZL1

Why do say issues? We don't know this either. Could be they are getting the programming calibrated for normal driving since we all know it's awesome on the track. We will just have to wait and see.

Like I said "potential" issues or supply issues.

We don't know anything ... Some days I feel like a mushroom .... Kept in the dark...

[tones2SS]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker128

Let the people that are pissed vent. gm deserves to get egged on for the mistake, the less people making excuses for gm the quicker it's done with, arguing will just bring the issue to light even more.
Gm hyped the A10, and failed on the release, for reasons only known to them, however embarrassing it might be we won't know until later, which could be Q1 at best, Q2 most likely, and Q3/4 also a possibility.

So,...."if" there were issues,.......would you rather they just release the A10 and hope for the best and deal with the mess after. Or, just fix the mess before it is released to the general public?? Which makes more sense?
That's "IF" there is an issue with the A10. No one knows that there is.

[NB2017ZL1]

I'm waiting as long as it takes so I get it right outta the box!!

[Boilermaker128]

If i say a job will be done and it is not, I expect to be egged and will tell the honest reason as to why there is a delay, and how i am fixing theissue. Not hide the truth, and further shake my customers faith. Especially if I was hyping up how good of a worker I was, and having to compete against another contractor, aka Ford.

It's very possible that Ford will have A10 out in its non raptor models before gm gets it in the ZL1. Good for Ford!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by KLR ZL1

Why do say issues? We don't know this either. Could be they are getting the programming calibrated for normal driving since we all know it's awesome on the track. We will just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Boilermaker128

If i say a job will be done and it is not, I expect to be egged and will tell the honest reason as to why there is a delay, and how i am fixing theissue. Not hide the truth, and further shake my customers faith. Especially if I was hyping up how good of a worker I was, and having to compete against another contractor, aka Ford.

It's very possible that Ford will have A10 out in its non raptor models before gm gets it in the ZL1. Good for Ford!

Right. Good for Ford...for why again? A further assumption?

Very sorry to hear your faith was "shaken"......

Some people need to relax and stop witch-hunting because they didn't get their rainbow lollipop when they expected it.