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Old 02-10-2013, 08:20 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Norm Peterson View Post
It's not a moot point because a little lower on the absolute power scale would then become more acceptable. Maybe only marginally so, but that's still acceptable to many.

Of course everything more powerful that stays at least roughly the same power output improves its position, but they've already been justified and further demonstration of that is not necessary.



Fine. Find me a 2-door model that's no taller than 56" and available with a manual transmission. Then we can get into the sort of power requirements and what-not that it would take to siphon potential entry-level Camaro sales over into it. Please don't suggest anything that looks like a shrunken SUV, crossover, or odd little box on wheels.



As long as you can get your version, why does it matter what version GM can sell to somebody who doesn't have the gotta-have-performance gene? GM is not trying to convince you that you must evolve away from yours.

Anybody whose own choice is to walk away from the Camaro line before the V8 becomes completely unavailable just because an I4-T shows up is making that choice all by himself. That's cutting your nose off to spite your face over a perception that's more imagined than real.

If/when the V8 does disappear from the line entirely and no V8 represents an absolute deal-breaker for you, abandoning ship then does become the only option. I know this, because I've already been down a similar road over manual transmission availability in family sedans - more than once. The point is that I do know the difference between me abandoning a car company and them abandoning me. The question is, do you?


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So height is the new requirement?

An Accord Coupe and Altima coupe are both available with manual transmissions and 270/280 HP V6 engines. Both are 300 to 400 pounds less than a Camaro.

Not saying this works for everyone. Just saying those can also be very entertaining to drive.

V6 manual transmission "sporty coupes".
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:32 PM   #156
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Why don't they just build the Cruze coupe we all wanted in the first place... lol. They killed the LNF Cobalt thats the right place for a turbo 4, not an overweight Camaro. 6th Gen is probably a way off anyways.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:54 PM   #157
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Why don't they just build the Cruze coupe we all wanted in the first place... lol. They killed the LNF Cobalt thats the right place for a turbo 4, not an overweight Camaro. 6th Gen is probably a way off anyways.
This.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:56 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Jrichards73 View Post
Why don't they just build the Cruze coupe we all wanted in the first place... lol. They killed the LNF Cobalt thats the right place for a turbo 4, not an overweight Camaro. 6th Gen is probably a way off anyways.
The 6thgen is going to weigh less on Alpha. Calling it overweight is wrong.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
So height is the new requirement?

An Accord Coupe and Altima coupe are both available with manual transmissions and 270/280 HP V6 engines. Both are 300 to 400 pounds less than a Camaro.

Not saying this works for everyone. Just saying those can also be very entertaining to drive.

V6 manual transmission "sporty coupes".
And so it will begin....gone with the wind...No more Challenger, Mustang comparisons...

....Enators sales graphs for each month will be replaced with Camaro vs Honda and Nissan sales...lol
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:39 PM   #160
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So height is the new requirement?

An Accord Coupe and Altima coupe are both available with manual transmissions and 270/280 HP V6 engines. Both are 300 to 400 pounds less than a Camaro.

Not saying this works for everyone. Just saying those can also be very entertaining to drive.

V6 manual transmission "sporty coupes".
So, what you are looking for is for the Camaro to be the kind of sporty coupe the Accord is. A bean counter car?
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:02 PM   #161
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And so it will begin....gone with the wind...No more Challenger, Mustang comparisons...

....Enators sales graphs for each month will be replaced with Camaro vs Honda and Nissan sales...lol
So you don't want the Camaro to be so great that anyone considering a coupe would consider the Camaro? I'm really not getting what you think a V6 Camaro is then.

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So, what you are looking for is for the Camaro to be the kind of sporty coupe the Accord is. A bean counter car?
Again and again. You guys think that people that buy V6 Camaros aren't just looking for a great coupe? Do you think all V6 buyers are posers that wish they could buy an SS?

Let me be clear. I hope for the day when the Camaro is such a great coupe that not only do Mustang buyers and Challenger buyers think about it but Accord, Altima and Genesis buyers, and all the others thinking of buying the best coupe would look to the Camaro as the ultimate sporty coupe to buy.

Why do you guys act like that is some kind of insult? I guess I'm lost.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:33 PM   #162
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So you don't want the Camaro to be so great that anyone considering a coupe would consider the Camaro? I'm really not getting what you think a V6 Camaro is then.



Again and again. You guys think that people that buy V6 Camaros aren't just looking for a great coupe? Do you think all V6 buyers are posers that wish they could buy an SS?

Let me be clear. I hope for the day when the Camaro is such a great coupe that not only do Mustang buyers and Challenger buyers think about it but Accord, Altima and Genesis buyers, and all the others thinking of buying the best coupe would look to the Camaro as the ultimate sporty coupe to buy.

Why do you guys act like that is some kind of insult? I guess I'm lost.
Here's why: because we don't believe one car can be everything to everyone. When you try to make a pony/muscle car/sports car/grocery getter/ econo car you end up making everything mediocre. That's why econo cars and family sedans and grocery getter coupes are all in different categories at different price points and marketed differently.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:54 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Number 3
So you don't want the Camaro to be so great that anyone considering a coupe would consider the Camaro? I'm really not getting what you think a V6 Camaro is then.

This thread is about 4 cylinder Camaros not sixes. We have no problem with them, they are tradition. The question is do you want anyone considering an econo box 4 banger to consider the Camaro. GM makes more than one car, they don't have to fill every price point with Camaro.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:22 PM   #164
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the way i see it, it's better to have a choice than not.
it would be fine if they offered a 4 cyl. camaro and let the people buy the camaro with the engine type that they like
But they can't do that. They are being coerced by a beaurocratic mafia to sell a boatload of "Eco" Camaros to earn enough MPGs to sell one V8 Camaro. In order to convince buyers to adopt this ratio of cars they must do one thing:

They will subsidize the cars they need to sell at lot of (I-4) by overcharging for the ones they want to discourage people from buying (V-8) and funneling the extra money into incentinves for the mass volume cars.

The net effect is that many people who want a V-8 will not be able to find one because they will only go to high volume dealers who can get their hands on the rare models. And many other people will not get the V-8 engine they want because the price is jacked up artificially out of their price range to force them into the I-4.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:29 PM   #165
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Here is the puzzle. If gas prices hit $5, $6 per gallon people will go more and more to those economical cars and abandon Camaro as a potenial choice. I have strong recollections what happened to the Camaro back in 2000 or so when the total Camaro/Firebird sales dropped to very low levels. Took us years (Fbodfather cough, cough) of effort to get one back.

Volume drives the business case plain and simple. So without a viable entry level Camaro, the SS/ZL1 can't exist unless you get it up to Corvette $$. And I'm not sensing a strong desire on this website to have a Camaro starting at $50,000.
How can you blame what happened to the sales in 2000 on the cars themselves?

What do you expect will happen to sales if you make a car that you don't advertise and half-heartedly refresh with parts bin components. The best part of the refresh was the LS1 but even that was never advertised really. By 2000 the design was 7 years old and had 7 year old interior which was not great when it first came out new. (Yes, it was refreshed in 1998, but with Firebird parts, not new ones.)
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:33 PM   #166
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I like Turbo LS7s better than Turbo 4
oooh... but that has 0.0992% less horsepower per liter than a one-off honda racing engine I read about, so it sucks!
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:41 PM   #167
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Ok, I'll post it again. The Chinese auto market is expected to triple by early next decade. Do you think the Chinese market going from 12 million per year to 30 million per year in the next 8 to 10 years won't impact the price of gas in the upward direction?
Now that we have figured out how to get the oil out of tar sands and out of shale, it can't be that hard to extract it from the red-tape. Once we do that, there will be plenty for everyone and gas will be cheap.

Also, the economy will right itself, and we will have a big public works project to build oil powered earth cooling fans to placate the climatist preists.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:55 PM   #168
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Cheap gas and another golden age of muscle cars! That's what I'm about.
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