[LesBaer]

I was just looking back over this stuff last night and it's crazy that it's only a few years away. I have no idea how the manufacturers are going to get to the mandated averages (54.8 mpg I believe) and still sell naturally aspirated V8 sports cars. They're making such a high % of their profits on big trucks and SUVs and people are buying them because gas is so cheap. Those cars are where they make all their money, so a muscle/sports car or a halo car really hurts their average mpg while not contributing as much profit to their bottom line. We've also all seen manufacturers' focus expand to driver-less cars. Do you folks think we're looking at a situation similar to the early 70's when everything got phased out?

I understand that the 70's were due to gas supply being limited by OPEC, but the end result is what I was thinking about while watching Barrett Jackson over the weekend. This was the first year when cars with catalytic converters actually rose in value (like the Trans Am). I never thought that would happen so soon. I know it would take a long, long time, but the first model year of the gen 6 SS might be something special. Every car maker seems like they're moving to turbo charged smaller engines. There are fewer and fewer naturally aspirated high-output V8's with manual transmissions available each year.

Do you think it might be worth it to spend a little more to order an SS with the top performance options (plus a stick and uncommon color combo) from the factory and keep it stock until we see what happens? I love to mod but it's really hard (if not impossible) to get your money back. It even makes them harder to sell depending on what you do. Before I decided to buy one, I never thought the Camaro was anything special...just another mass produced American car. Now I'm wondering if I should hang on to it for the long haul, keeping all the literature, order sheet, etc. over trading it in down the road towards something else.

[DMC75]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I was just looking back over this stuff last night and it's crazy that it's only a few years away. I have no idea how the manufacturers are going to get to the mandated averages (54.8 mpg I believe) and still sell naturally aspirated V8 sports cars. They're making such a high % of their profits on big trucks and SUVs and people are buying them because gas is so cheap. Those cars are where they make all their money, so a muscle/sports car or a halo car really hurts their average mpg while not contributing as much profit to their bottom line. We've also all seen manufacturers' focus expand to driver-less cars. Do you folks think we're looking at a situation similar to the early 70's when everything got phased out?

I understand that the 70's were due to gas supply being limited by OPEC, but the end result is what I was thinking about while watching Barrett Jackson over the weekend. This was the first year when cars with catalytic converters actually rose in value (like the Trans Am). I never thought that would happen so soon. I know it would take a long, long time, but the first model year of the gen 6 SS might be something special. Every car maker seems like they're moving to turbo charged smaller engines. There are fewer and fewer naturally aspirated high-output V8's with manual transmissions available each year.

Do you think it might be worth it to spend a little more to order an SS with the top performance options (plus a stick and uncommon color combo) from the factory and keep it stock until we see what happens? I love to mod but it's really hard (if not impossible) to get your money back. It even makes them harder to sell depending on what you do. Before I decided to buy one, I never thought the Camaro was anything special...just another mass produced American car. Now I'm wondering if I should hang on to it for the long haul, keeping all the literature, order sheet, etc. over trading it in down the road towards something else.

I think the way they are going to hi the averages is by increasing the MPG of the "gas guzzlers" slightly (with AFM and the like), combined with the introduction and increased footprint of the Volt/Bolt/"E-Next" cars. i think the increase in market share of the EV's is going to ramp up quickly over the next few years. But having said all of that, 54.8 by 2020 is going to be a challenge. I think the big problem is the charging infrastructure and how long it takes... even if its 30 minutes for a full charge, that is still about 6 times the amount of time it takes to fill my tank.

[Mr. Wyndham]

It's tough - and it'll be difficult...but bear in mind that CAFE-standard fuel economy ratings for vehicles are actually much higher than the EPA-given numbers you see on the window stickers. And if I recall correctly, trucks are held to a different FE standard than cars.

The companies must strike a balance between selling products that people actually want...and selling vehicles that help counter-act the fuel economy of things like Camaros, etc. For every performance car that gets sold...we need to make sure that people are buying Volts and hybrid Malibus....

[Number 3]

The devil as they say is in the details. The new FE standards are based on foot print (WB x Track). It will be very hard to achieve, but if you look up the chart I think the Camaro has to hit mid to upper 30s.

But it will get harder and harder to afford a V8 without hybrid technology ($$$$$) start stop, cylinder deactivation, etc.

[hotlap]

I see the 2016 Malibu rated at 37 mpg and "the 2016 Volt at 42 mpg combined when the engine is running, and 106 Miles Per Gallon Equivalent combined when operating solely on electricity."

Its not hard to see cars turned into complete crap again. So unnecessary

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...-42-mpg-on-gas

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I was just looking back over this stuff last night and it's crazy that it's only a few years away. I have no idea how the manufacturers are going to get to the mandated averages (54.8 mpg I believe) and still sell naturally aspirated V8 sports cars. They're making such a high % of their profits on big trucks and SUVs and people are buying them because gas is so cheap. Those cars are where they make all their money, so a muscle/sports car or a halo car really hurts their average mpg while not contributing as much profit to their bottom line. We've also all seen manufacturers' focus expand to driver-less cars. Do you folks think we're looking at a situation similar to the early 70's when everything got phased out?

I understand that the 70's were due to gas supply being limited by OPEC, but the end result is what I was thinking about while watching Barrett Jackson over the weekend. This was the first year when cars with catalytic converters actually rose in value (like the Trans Am). I never thought that would happen so soon. I know it would take a long, long time, but the first model year of the gen 6 SS might be something special. Every car maker seems like they're moving to turbo charged smaller engines. There are fewer and fewer naturally aspirated high-output V8's with manual transmissions available each year.

Do you think it might be worth it to spend a little more to order an SS with the top performance options (plus a stick and uncommon color combo) from the factory and keep it stock until we see what happens? I love to mod but it's really hard (if not impossible) to get your money back. It even makes them harder to sell depending on what you do. Before I decided to buy one, I never thought the Camaro was anything special...just another mass produced American car. Now I'm wondering if I should hang on to it for the long haul, keeping all the literature, order sheet, etc. over trading it in down the road towards something else.

I would think the money will be with a potential 50th anniversary model with the most uncommon spec possible. Maybe a 1SS with a manual instead of the 2SS Auto that will likely sell much better.

That being said we are still talking about holding on to a car for 30 years or more before it might start appreciating. At that point you either had a car you ran into the ground or low mileage pampered car that you never really got to enjoy. I personally will take care of my car, but it will also be enjoyed and exercised heavily at track days. So I won't be thinking of my purchase as an investment. Truthfully if I was investing in a late model car it would be a Camaro Z/28. I seriously doubt you will see such a purpose built car like that ever made again. Especially a Camaro. It's reputation will remain as a giant killer and I bet when I'm 50 it will be the car I look back on and wish I would have bought and kept in good shape.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

I see the 2016 Malibu rated at 37 mpg and "the 2016 Volt at 42 mpg combined when the engine is running, and 106 Miles Per Gallon Equivalent combined when operating solely on electricity."

Its not hard to see cars turned into complete crap again. So unnecessary

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...-42-mpg-on-gas

We've been worried about cars loosing their spirit for the last two decades...the 70's crisis, and subsequent fuel economy standards were traumatizing to automotive enthusiasts....

But so far - cars have been getting faster, lighter, and more fuel efficient.

And vehicles like the Tesla Roadster provide me hope that performance will not be lost...it'll just change.

Meanwhile...I think it's all unnecessary...biomass and grass-based ethanol (NOT corn) and algae-based oils can have a dramatic impact on our petroleum usage...far more dramatic that merely upping MPG standards....

[hotlap]

This Al Oppenheiser quote from June 2015 Hot Rod speaks to the future.

HRM: ...is this a performance bubble or will we see performance cars continue to improve over the next few years?

AO: Let's see. You've heard Mark Reuss say many times that Chevrolet has the most capable performance lineup we've ever had at Chevrolet. The things we do on Z/28 and ZL1 with magnetic ride and DSSV dampers. The Corvette has so much technology. We're going to incorporate much more of that to comply with future fuel economy. We're going to always be able to do performance, it's just how you define performance and the tools you have to do that. It may change to more technology-based down the road. Hey, look at it realistically, electric motors provide instant torque. That's pretty cool.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The devil as they say is in the details. The new FE standards are based on foot print (WB x Track). It will be very hard to achieve, but if you look up the chart I think the Camaro has to hit mid to upper 30s.

But it will get harder and harder to afford a V8 without hybrid technology ($$$$$) start stop, cylinder deactivation, etc.

I agree. I imagine after years pass some of the electric motor tech you are seeing on hyper cars will eventually trickle down to lower level performance cars.

I for one would love to have a great track day 500hp car that I can turn to all electric mode for my daily 5 mi commute to and from work.

[Thor142]

I'm too old to care what value my car will have in 30 years. I am however considering keeping my 15 1LE because the LS3 doesn't have any of that cylinder deactivation crap. Although I do love the look of the Gen 6. Cafe standards are going to kill the N\A V8 for sure.

[JDP Sales]

The only constant is change. There will always be performance it just may look more like Teslas and less like fire breathing V8s... Either way, we are very fortunate to have these types of machines at present.

All the best,

Jared Royce
801.545.4215

[nancygrl]

Originally Posted by Thor142

I'm too old to care what value my car will have in 30 years. I am however considering keeping my 15 1LE because the LS3 doesn't have any of that cylinder deactivation crap.

I'm right with you on your post

[SpeedIsLife]

CAFE will dramatically limit the availability of ALL V8's in the future, probably not completely eliminate it as long as there is a market to pay a premium for them.

I can easily see a situation where a V8 is an option in say..a halo Camaro or Corvette for..$7,500 or so and only on a 2SS/3LT/etc level car, not a base car. People who can afford it can get it, but the price will keep most away. A SS for the average buyer in the $38,000-$48,000 range? A TTV6 I'm willing to bet. Real world fuel economy isn't the question, it's what it can produce in a test cell that matters to the CAFE/EPA/MPG evaluators.

People like to say "Oh they said this in the 70's/80's too, look how the V8's are still around"...they didn't have CAFE then which isn't going away and isn't going to get better.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

People like to say "Oh they said this in the 70's/80's too, look how the V8's are still around"...they didn't have CAFE then which isn't going away and isn't going to get better.

Bingo. I'm betting this will be the last generation of a V8 in the base SS. Afterwards we may only see them in the HiPo models like others have stated. What is intriguing is the hybrid technology of using the electric motors to assist the engine, instead of using the engine to just charge the batteries.That could definitely give the V8 in the SS a little longer lifespan but at this point would increase costs further. Hopefully the price of the tech will drop to a point to match the increases from CAFE.