[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by autocross

Sorry to dig this up from ages ago, but I was hilariously reading through the entire forum. I know, I know - I should find something better to do with my time.

This post caught my eye because you claimed with the proper suspension on the S550, the steering would precise, and offer more feedback. Do you have any evidence on this?

I am aware ford performance makes a “Track Handling Pack” for the mustang, and I believe it’s about 1K or a little more. Apparently this absolutely redefines the handling characteristics of the S550, but I am not sure if it improves the somewhat sloppy feeling steering.

Someone who installed that kit actually managed 1.11 G’s in a corner which I find a pretty impressive jump over stock (running PP1 tires i believe).

Now If we are comparing cars, what about this-
Stock Camaro SS VS Mustang GT w/ Track Handling Pack

Before you all start talking about the better brakes, and other track oriented goodies you aren’t getting with a non PP GT. Hear me out... Most drivers are probably buying their cars for appearance and status, but a handful will be enthusiasts.

Out of that handful of enthusiasts, how many will actually be track rats? Not many at all. Why? Because that takes access to a track and resources which most buyers can’t afford. So that means this car, in the hands of an enthusiast, will be driven spiritedly on public roads (maybe autocross).

For this, the non PP components would be perfectly adequate. You would get an S550 with a higher lateral acceleration than the Camaro SS for a cheaper price. The prices would be close, but numbers like 1.11 G’s are much closer to that of the SS 1LE which is a significantly higher price. For that much money, you could put wider / stickier tires on the GT for an even higher lateral acceleration.

You miss out on lots of track goodies, but it sounds like a good way to get serious handling. And it sounds like with better suspension, the steering will translate more information because all of those vibrations are not being absorbed by the overly loose chassy —-

Someone please confirm my last statement though! The one downside of the S550 is the steering feel, but that could be totally dependent on the super soft suspensuon. That could easily make the car just feel totally disconnected through the wheel? Or maybe there’s more to it?

Obviously you didn't see the videos or read any of the countless articles on this comparison or you're just in denial.

GM's Alpha chassis is superior to the Ford S550 chassis from a pure performance/handling dynamic perspective. Every vehicle the GM engineers offered on the Alpha chassis from the CTS, ATS, and Camaro has won rave reviews from every ride and drive journalist and professional car mag.

You can like the Mustang better and that's your choice but the better developed pony car chassis is the Alpha because GM employs some of, if not the best, chassis engineers in the business bar none. I could be a little biased but I don't think so.

[autocross]

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

Obviously you didn't see the videos or read any of the countless articles on this comparison or you're just in denial.

GM's Alpha chassis is superior to the Ford S550 chassis from a pure performance/handling dynamic perspective. Every vehicle the GM engineers offered on the Alpha chassis from the CTS, ATS, and Camaro has won rave reviews from every ride and drive journalist and professional car mag.

You can like the Mustang better and that's your choice but the better developed pony car chassis is the Alpha because GM employs some of, if not the best, chassis engineers in the business bar none. I could be a little biased but I don't think so.

Like I already said, I’ve read through basically the entire forum. I know all about the alpha chassis, but I don’t think you really understood what I was getting at.

Sure a chassis can be better than another, but you can get extremely impressive numbers out of a cheaper S550 with a dealership 1,500 dollar modification. As far as I am aware, to get that kind of lateral acceleration you’d need to drop the dough on a 1LE.

And, since you very kindly said I’m in denial - explain something to me. What makes the alpha chassis so much better than the S550? Clearly ford equipped the GT cars with soft suspension because they’re going for a broad audience. When you equip it with a comparable suspension setup to the Camaro, it puts down over 1.1G!

I don’t think you can sneeze at that...

[hotlap]

No car on this year’s 10Best Cars roster is more at odds with its image than the Chevrolet Camaro. The nameplate has been around since 1967—excepting a seven-year sabbatical that started after 2002—plenty of time to forge a place for itself in the American psyche. But whether you love Chevy’s pony car for its cartoonish looks and loutish personality or you detest it for, well, its cartoonish looks and loutish personality, here’s some news for you: You have the Camaro all wrong.

Imagine meeting Vin Diesel and discovering that he has a law degree, quotes Robert Frost, and speaks with an English accent worthy of royalty. Maybe he is all that; we don’t know—we’ve never met him. That’s the Camaro’s story as well: You can’t know it until you’re one on one with it, preferably on a challenging two-lane road. It is there that the Camaro will demolish your preconceptions, one corner at a time.

We do our evaluations for 10Best Cars on exactly those kinds of devilish roads, ones with humps, heaves, blind crests, and fast, sweeping corners—which is why this sixth-generation Camaro made it on to the winners’ rostrum for the third year in a row. Like last year, it’s only the V-6 and V-8 coupes that qualify. The base turbocharged 2.0-liter inline-four lacks the power, refinement, and singing voice of its larger-engined brethren, and the convertibles are missing the structural rigidity and finely honed chassis of the tin-topped models.

About that chassis. It’s one of the best in the world, with the kind of preternaturally intuitive steering, faultless brakes, and overall balance you’d expect from a Porsche. Aside from the bewinged 650-hp ZL1 1LE track-attack monster, Camaros ride with uncanny suppleness, too.

A base Camaro coupe with the 335-hp 3.6-liter V-6, six-speed manual, RS trim, and snarly performance exhaust lists for about $31,000 and drives a lot like the BMW 3-series used to. The sweet spot in the lineup is the SS, with its bellicose 455-hp 6.2-liter V-8. It’s a Corvette with jump seats. Add the 1LE package to either of these cars and it remains a comfortable daily driver that’s stout enough for track duty. What more could an enthusiast want?

Maybe a ZL1. It’s as refined and adept as an SS but with strong enough acceleration to alter time and an exhaust note piped in from the earth’s molten core. The ZL1 is a supercar that just happens to look like a Camaro.

Camaros are highly focused cars with some very obvious shortcomings. There’s plenty of tire noise, the rear seat is best suited to Lilliputians, interior storage is virtually nonexistent, and seeing out of the gun-slit windows is a pain. And then there’s that image.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-coupes-page-4

[metros11]

Originally Posted by autocross

Sure a chassis can be better than another, but you can get extremely impressive numbers out of a cheaper S550 with a dealership 1,500 dollar modification. As far as I am aware, to get that kind of lateral acceleration you’d need to drop the dough on a 1LE.

I don't know what magical option you think a Ford dealer can offer on a Mustang for $1,500 that would make it a competitor to a 1LE. What I do know is that Ford can tune the S550 into a world class handling chassis. All it takes is an extra $15,000 and a GT350 badge.

[autocross]

Originally Posted by metros11

I don't know what magical option you think a Ford dealer can offer on a Mustang for $1,500 that would make it a competitor to a 1LE. What I do know is that Ford can tune the S550 into a world class handling chassis. All it takes is an extra $15,000 and a GT350 badge.

It isn’t a magical option. It’s just a tighter suspension kit. The reason the GT is such a slob is because they installed such a loose suspension setup, right? Even the power package is somewhat bouncy, and really not that stiff.

The track kit gives you sway bars, shocks, struts, and a few thicker linkages here and there. Basically stiffens the car up to the camaro’s setup. It handles a lot better once you do this.

Just because one car has been setup for a different audience doesn’t mean it isn’t capeable of being re-tuned to a more enthusiast orientation

[hotlap]

.

...When I asked our handling guru Kim Reynolds what he thought about the two cars after lapping them, he looked first to the Camaro then disparagingly glanced at the Mustang and said, “There’s about 4,000 years of evolution separating the two.”

Ouch. But that’s the feeling both Jethro and I got out on the road. The SS 1LE—which by the way placed fourth in our 2016 Best Driver’s Car competition—is an ideal back road warrior. Everything it does is sweet, from turn-in to midcorner to post-apex to whatever—the Chevy never puts a foot wrong, never misbehaves, and most certainly never understeers. But the grip is so high that even though the chassis is keen to, the car never oversteers—even with everything turned off.

The Ford? Look, ever since the Mustang went with an independent rearend, the GTs haven’t been set up properly. The lighter EcoBoost cars are better, and the Shelby GT350R handles about as well as anything on the road. But the normal V-8s? Not great. I had high hopes the combination of the 2018 refresh, the new Performance Pack goodies, and MagneRide would fix things. Nope. The car rolls over on itself and seems to not only understeer but also to try and oversteer at the same time. Like the front and back aren’t actually connected. Jethro kept pointing out that although the Ford felt bad going into a corner, once you were actually in a turn it was pretty much OK. “There’s a good car somewhere under there,” he said. I concur.

Then came the track. We took the two American icons out to Streets of Willow. Here’s the good news for Ford fans. The fastback GT laid down a 1:23.97 lap. That’s 0.24 second off the aforementioned M4 (1:23.73), just quicker than a Lexus RC F (1:24.08), and nearly three tenths of a second better than a 2015 Mustang GT Performance Pack (1:24.29). The bad news? The Camaro SS 1LE laid down a 1:20.67 lap, 3.3 seconds quicker. In other words, these two cars wouldn’t be allowed to race together. Different class doesn’t cover it. The list of cars the Camaro went faster than should embarrass some OEMs: Porsche Cayman GT4, 2014 Audi R8 V10 Plus, Ferrari 458 Italia. I mean, come on!

To put it bluntly, the Camaro is in another league, with legitimate supercars. A 2015 GT-R NISMO held the Streets record—1:19.07—meaning the gulf between the quickest car ever lapped at the track and the Chevy (1.6 seconds) was less than half the gulf between our two competitors (3.3 seconds). But then we got bored at lunch and Randy ran a lap in a Lamborghini Huracán Performonte. Result: new champ, at 1:18.73—making the Camaro the sixth-fastest car around Streets. Yet the Chevy still is less than 2 seconds off the pace of a hypercar costing six times as much. Dang.

...For less money, Chevy stone-cold out-engineered Ford...

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...ck-comparison/

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by metros11

I don't know what magical option you think a Ford dealer can offer on a Mustang for $1,500 that would make it a competitor to a 1LE. What I do know is that Ford can tune the S550 into a world class handling chassis. All it takes is an extra $15,000 and a GT350 badge.

And carbon fiber wheels...

[metros11]

Originally Posted by autocross

It isn’t a magical option.

If you're telling me that shocks/struts, springs, sway bars, and end links make the GT a competitor to the 1LE, it's the fvck1ng unicorn.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And carbon fiber wheels...

Those are on the 'R' only.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by autocross

It isn’t a magical option. It’s just a tighter suspension kit. The reason the GT is such a slob is because they installed such a loose suspension setup, right? Even the power package is somewhat bouncy, and really not that stiff.

The track kit gives you sway bars, shocks, struts, and a few thicker linkages here and there. Basically stiffens the car up to the camaro’s setup. It handles a lot better once you do this.

You'd want at the very least for this kit to be essentially the same as the PP2 except for the Magne-Ride, and you'd need a PP2-size wheel & tire package as well. Lacking the Mag-ride shouldn't affect the peak lateral g capability much, though with the Mag-ride it'd probably be different transitionally and better when the pavement isn't as smooth. Probably better going over apex and track-out curbings when you are at the track.

Just because one car has been setup for a different audience doesn’t mean it isn’t capeable of being re-tuned to a more enthusiast orientation

Perhaps the question here isn't whether the Mustang can be re-tuned up to the production-stock SS 1LE level, but how successful any of Ford's own efforts might be at doing so. Right now, we don't even have a PP2 vs 1LE comparison, let alone any clear way of comparing Ford's aftermarket kit to the 1LE or even to their own PP2.

Maybe the FP kit can run competitive numbers, maybe it can't. And that's just the beginning. For the record, I doubt the Camaro is immune to both understeer and oversteer - this from

Originally Posted by MT

"and most certainly never understeers. But the grip is so high that even though the chassis is keen to, the car never oversteers—even with everything turned off".

Norm

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by autocross

It isn’t a magical option. It’s just a tighter suspension kit. The reason the GT is such a slob is because they installed such a loose suspension setup, right? Even the power package is somewhat bouncy, and really not that stiff.

The track kit gives you sway bars, shocks, struts, and a few thicker linkages here and there. Basically stiffens the car up to the camaro’s setup. It handles a lot better once you do this.

Just because one car has been setup for a different audience doesn’t mean it isn’t capeable of being re-tuned to a more enthusiast orientation

Lemme put it to you this way.... the stock 2018 Mustang GT can't even compete with the 2018 Camaro V6 1LE head to head... much less the 2018 Camaro SS in terms of suspension from factory.

Forget the SS 1LE. It just decimates anything Ford has for a Mustang period, save perhaps a GT 350R...even then...Ford won't allow it to happen...because who wants to drop 70k on a car that gets whooped by a 50k competitor all day..

[autocross]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

You'd want at the very least for this kit to be essentially the same as the PP2 except for the Magne-Ride, and you'd need a PP2-size wheel & tire package as well. Lacking the Mag-ride shouldn't affect the peak lateral g capability much, though with the Mag-ride it'd probably be different transitionally and better when the pavement isn't as smooth. Probably better going over apex and track-out curbings when you are at the track.


Perhaps the question here isn't whether the Mustang can be re-tuned up to the production-stock SS 1LE level, but how successful any of Ford's own efforts might be at doing so. Right now, we don't even have a PP2 vs 1LE comparison, let alone any clear way of comparing Ford's aftermarket kit to the 1LE or even to their own PP2.

Maybe the FP kit can run competitive numbers, maybe it can't. And that's just the beginning. For the record, I doubt the Camaro is immune to both understeer and oversteer - this from


Norm

I agree it would hugely benefit from the massive 305’s on the PP2. If we’re talking bone stock, ford clearly designed the mustang to be cushy. It’s kind of unfortunate, but their sales figures indicate they aren’t designing the car for us enthusiasts.

Chevy might be, but look at their numbers. The dealerships even told me it was a niche car. The camaro!!!

I guess the mustang is a great platform, and I’d go to the extent of saying sleeper. If you tune the suspension up, nobody knowledgeable will expect you do do anything remarkable.

My understanding is if you want a really good car STOCK, get the camaro and smoke everyone. If you’re okay with getting a car which isn’t exactly designed for you, it would be really satisfying to tune the car to your requirements. You could have something very special

[WILWAXU]

Let the fun begin:
https://www.facebook.com/wilwaxu/posts/734428336947859

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by autocross

I agree it would hugely benefit from the massive 305’s on the PP2. If we’re talking bone stock, ford clearly designed the mustang to be cushy. It’s kind of unfortunate, but their sales figures indicate they aren’t designing the car for us enthusiasts.

Chevy might be, but look at their numbers. The dealerships even told me it was a niche car. The camaro!!!

I guess the mustang is a great platform, and I’d go to the extent of saying sleeper. If you tune the suspension up, nobody knowledgeable will expect you do do anything remarkable.

My understanding is if you want a really good car STOCK, get the camaro and smoke everyone. If you’re okay with getting a car which isn’t exactly designed for you, it would be really satisfying to tune the car to your requirements. You could have something very special

Ford designed the Mustang to be cheap. The Camaro SS still rides very nice. Even in SS 1LE form, 10Best wrote its a comfortable daily driver.

Camaro outsold Mustang in total 2017 retail sales. Rental is Mustang's sales advantage for 2017.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Ford designed the Mustang to be cheap. The Camaro SS still rides very nice. Even in SS 1LE form, 10Best wrote its a comfortable daily driver.

Camaro outsold Mustang in total 2017 retail sales. Rental is Mustang's sales advantage for 2017.

Serious question, if Camaro really is the retail sales king, why is it's resale value awful? I know typically cars that usually end up in a lot of fleets normally have terrible resale values (Example Fusion) You would think that it would hold its value a little better. Was going to ask that in another thread were people asked why the lease rates were terrible and everyone pointed to the terrible resale values.