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Old 03-20-2018, 12:59 PM   #43
rjacobs
 
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I couldnt get traction today and didnt feel like heading out to the highway. Anything north of 65mph around me will get you a fat ticket so doing 100 on side roads wasnt in the cards today.

It was well north of the 2nd line approaching the 3rd line, but that wasnt on a long, stable pull since I couldnt get enough traction to get a clean pull off.

BUT I dont really remember where the boost was at before I backed it out 1/4 turn. Im really guessing I didnt gain anything.
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:23 PM   #44
cwebster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetres View Post
FWIW I checked/adjusted mine today. I backed it off until I could see a gap, and then tightened it until it appeared to have just made contact. Looks like the net result was slightly over 1/4 turn back from where it was originally. The darker blue “blob” was at the top before adjustment. Added a drop of blue loctite myself once complete.
Nice close-up shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninetres View Post
I didn’t log mine before although I may have one saved on my buddies laptop from our dyno session (my throttle stayed 98% FWIW on all pulls).

I don’t expect my cars performance to change honestly. I don’t think 1/4 turn will do much of anything. And I feel like my cars boost stayed pretty deep in the gauge beforehand.
Any updates on log data? Any negative side-effects like heat soak or dramatic fuel consumption?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt1z350 View Post
Don’t have a pic handy but can do one later this evening off my car. It’s really easy to find on the front of the supercharger you see the lines that go to the cooler. To the left about in line with them is the vacuum can and solenoid. See the rod coming out of the can follow it to the right side of intake at the end of has a stop score on the actual manifold. It’s a small Allen head. Turn it out till you see it NOT touching the rod to the can. It took mine 5 turns or so to hang in the air. Then some say preload it about a 1/16th of an inch lingenfelter says to leave it not touching on lsa videos. I bumped mine up to it so just laid there with no realpreload. My lsa blower on my tahoe has a big gap and no problems to date.
Prior to this adjustment I was seeing about 7 lbs if lucky on the gauge. Half way I guess as I hate how it’s incremented. Now it goes to just over the last line what I consider 10-11 lbs as I see 195 kpa spikes on my logs which is 14 lbs. it doesn’t make sense as pulleys are not setup to do that much or are they and no one is checking this adjustment. The little can is just pulling the boost back down on the stock tune anyway but you get a lot more even still when adjusted right. Some cars worse the others for sure and will know how bad off it is by what your seeing on your own gauge. Get past this then will tell you yet another trick which could be why I see higher spikes then I thought I would get from an adjustment.
I am finally breaking down saying screw the warranty and ordered an e85 sensor and tuning mine. Tired of seeing my logs show 30 percent throttle well through the 60 foot and sit at low 11s on mediocre track days and make 130 mph. So I know plenty waiting for a tune only car to make it to the track as I was one of them. So now I decided to just do it. Will be on e85 most likely or will get there on 93 make a run then switch over. Also other even if not doing this adjustment as scared of even touching the car for warranty reasons and this will not hurt that at all but if not into it just post what you think your car is making for boost as I am curious if this is a bad adjustment or part of the whole squash what this car can make due to trying to keep the 650/650 numbers on GM’s part.
Wow! That's a dramatic change!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP View Post
So cooling mods, adjust the bypass valve and some other unknown trick and you're running .2+ seconds faster on average than every other "fast" stock A10 pass? I'm probably game to try it, but I don't see how a bypass valve adjustment is taking you from 7 PSI (Stupid low for a stock LT4) to 10-11+, in fact that's not possible IMO without a pulley. What gives? Also, I thought the stock tune wouldn't even really allow the car to make any more power, hence why adding intakes/throttle bodies and the like on stock tune don't, in your opinion, gain anything because the tune just limits the timing and whatnot to keep it at stock power?
+1

Based on other posts, it seems there is a wide variation between "stock" pre-load settings. Lt1z350 had 2 1/2 turns - others had barely 1/8". I wonder why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017-ZL1 View Post
Wouldn't expect a lot unless it's gross off. The bypass blade should be slightly "off seat", to avoid grooving and a possible binding. Probably around 1/8th of a turn off seat will handle the job.
That sounds like a reasonable precaution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt1z350 View Post
ok so here is some hard data on it from my 128.89 mph run. It was a terrible spinning 1.9s 60 foot and think this was the 11.50. the da for the day was around 325 if remember right as see in my log ambient temp is 63 so nothing crazy. the problem was air was wet as track was getting very slick from the 90 degrees of humidty and near the dew point for the evening. So to run that fast in those conditions I was ok with it.
It is holding around 170-177 kpa most of the run. Look at throttle green line its all over the place up down up down with shifts and closing as it makes more boost. My car is was currently stock no pulleys no tune and why its shutting the throttle on it. If people not believing me Ill post current pics of the engine. pull up a chart 170 kpa is 10 lbs and I have seen 190 kpa in a log yet is was a spike I have it in a log. I also am playing with the solenoid so sure that is helping it too but my screw was way in like 5 half turns so 2.5 total. My gauge when I am down on it is staying right about that last line now all the time the one before the bottom 15 prior I was always at the second line or 130-145 kpa on logs. I have logs as low as 110-120 kpa where it was making only 2-3 lbs and ran like 122-123 mph on those. pretty pathetic how much the stock tune and a bad adjustment can screw with the car. I am currently tuning mine now ordered a flex fuel sensor putting my meth kit on it and cutting the cats off and my ported throttle body I did myself that sets codes as it flows too much for stock tune. doing all this for now then will go run the car again see what it gains on 93 only and on the e50-85 mix.
I have posted 3 log pics look at how it can be as low as 110 kpa or as high as 170s. I just found my 131 run too and it shows 190 kpa peak with 91 percent throttle most of the run and pretty flat. I can post that on another post as only lets me do so many pics.
Now I am doing this to help others out it does nothing for me to share this info I am not putting vidoes on utube tell you to go watch them so I dont make any money I dont push anyones products I do this to HELP people so when I get some asshole doubting what I am telling you guys it pisses me off and I am going to quit sharing what I lean. No one else is doing this so if not me you all sit in the dark and learn nothing. I have seen this particular prick post against others too so im really not surprised in probably the one that doesnt ever go to the track never will and car just stay stock.
If you pay close attention to the red line that is the peak torque and no matter what the car is doing with the throttle and the boost it never goes over 844 some it is lower it is doing this because that is the dead limit in the tune period. The throttle up and down the boost up and down delivered torque is diving from the shifts and timing changes but the max torque is dead flat as thats what the computer decided under all current conditions that is all your getting.
That is my point on any bolt on at all once the car is on this limit that's all it will give. That is the cars like mine running 127-130 in the quarter mile. Add that with wind and all other track conditions if you had a good 60 foot or spun your da things like that then get 11.6-10.82. a little tail wind and a good 60 foot easy to go from a 11.00 to 10.80 and pick up 2-3 mph. I dont give two shits anymore about the LIST as I dont believe in how it is setup so wont be posting on it anymore so I have no other reason to say what my car has run or not run.
I would be curious to get some logs off guys that cannot get the car to run over 125 no matter what and see what the car is doing. I know some of this info isnt typical for guys to see and most likely its because the others that do all this are doing it for a living and using that info to do tunes make money and so on. Do you really think a company that is selling bolt ons for a living will share all this? Under certain conditions maybe when its 100 out and your at some really high elevations and the car is using 100 percent throttle and all the boost it can make if your still not on these limits yes the stuff will help some. When I tried a small e85 mix just enough to get it to lean out a bit to make more power it closed the throttle all the way to 39 percent and gave no more at wot and almost no boost at all. The car still was running low 11s @125-126 so it actually slowed the car down trying to keep the power down. The new e92 ecm is a torque based throttle system so everything the car is doing is based off what it is making for peak torque. The problem is the window is very small and a stock car can get all over it in certain conditions. I am just sharing hard data from logs this info cannot be skewed or tricked I get nothing from trying to screw with anyone. This is what my stock tune stock engine car is doing. Once I decide if this solenoid thing I am playing with is doing anything or not I will share it as it could possibly be causing these weird spikes of boost. The solenoid is a boost dump if it wasnt there the superchager would be making boost all the time even at idle so you cant get rid of it as some tried on the lsa and ran into issues. So when it goes over the requested torque it also uses the solenoid to push the door open some and bleed off some boost its an abuse mode so to speak. One vaccum line controls the idle side and cruise like an old vacuum secondary 4 barrel closed at vacuum and then 0 vacuum it sucked open that is how the vacuum side works wide open at idle dumping all the boost then when you pound it vacuum drops door slams shut it makes boost why if it is held open by that screw your not getting all the boost the thing can make. The second side of that little can is the solenoid side which is hooked to boost directly. So when your making too much power by the computers calculations it will open the solenoid apply boost to the back side of that vacuum diaphragm pushing the door back open a little and bleeding off some boost. SO my idea is limit the solenoid side of it by restricting the line too it. So far seems like if it cant dump boost it is just closing the throttle even more OR pulling timing to pull power back. I am learning all this so that way I can make all the power possible on tune only with no pulleys so on. If the car can make 12-14 lbs by having the door all the way shut and the solenoid not pushing it open then why not????? I have seen my factory gauge near buried by doing all this but it just does other things to pull power as I just explained but doing that with a tune then get the full 12-14 then saves a bunch of money on other parts you dont need with a stock blower that doesnt really like over 14 lbs anyway. AND again why is no one sharing this that knows probably they make money on pulleys and other things or they just havent checked all this and everyone is over looking a simple thing. I found it on my tahoe with an lsa blower by accident so starting digging on the camaro. sorry to be long winded I know gets hard to read when so much at one time.
Yikes! That's so much detail! Thank you for sharing this... seriously. This is very interesting. I like your no-nonsense approach and don't mind reading through your long posts to glean important information.

I'm sure you can understand the scepticism, though. These are very dramatic changes for such a seemingly minor adjustment. Not that I don't believe you - you obviously have the logs to backup your words - but the boost increases showing in your logs do not seem possible without a pulley upgrade.

Using a Google search for [convert kpa to psi]

130 kpa = 18.8549 psi
170 kpa = 24.6564 PSI
190 kpa = 27.5572 psi

Could the pressures recorded in your logs be sampling from a different point than the boost gauge on the instrument panel? Hell, even if you half these numbers it's remarkable.

I'm guessing the "other trick" you mentioned in your first post is some kind of solenoid adjustment or mod.

This is truly a remarkable revelation! Like you said earlier, though, the power management system is likely to reduce much of the benefit for those of us maintaining the stock ECM tune.

Please keep us posted on your progress. If you open another thread please reference it here so we can follow.

[Questions]

That much of a performance difference makes me wary. Several questions come to mind.

-- Why would you not want throttle response to be as quick as possible from the factory?
-> Could it be to meet EPA MPG/Air Quality targets? (yes)
-> Could it be related to torque management? (yes)
-> Could it be an assembly line QC issue? (yes)

-- Are power increase claims universally true among other stock ECM ZL1's and due solely to preload adjustment?
-> If so, at what cost? In other words, what else could be affected?

--Would GM consider this a "modification" to deny related or unrelated warranty claims?

Based on results of some Google searches, I believe that completely removing the preload is not a good thing any more than excessive preload. From what I've read, it seems pretty common that throttle response increases with less preload. Thanks to Lt1z350's explanation I can see how it makes more power with less bypass air. The only things I have concerns about are stuck bypass valve and possible heat build-up from too little bypass at idle and low RPM.

Some of my references seem to indicate that zero preload risks stuck bypass valve (as 2017-ZL1 indicated) that could result in increased IAT (possible timing retard) and wasted fuel economy as the bypass would never open. On the other hand, too much preload allows too much air to bypass, resulting in lower boost / less power.

I don't think this is something your dealer will adjust for you since they may view it as a "modification". If you're not worried about this then checking and adjusting preload seems like a relatively low-risk adjustment, provided you do it when the engine is hot and don't go with zero preload.

I'd be very interested to see more hard numbers, though. Anyone else going to post logged boost, IATs, and other parameters before and after to compare?

--Cal

References:

PROPERLY mounting your Boost Bypass Valve

Super Charger Bypass Valve Adjustment. (posts 20858 & 20867)
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby35ny View Post
Gotta tell ya, the nannies are all over the place.
I did some testing in Mexico the other night at 72 degrees.
About 7 runs with 2 mile cool downs at 50 mph.

M6
3rd gear from 3k to 6k RPM.
Checking gauge from ob2 port at 6k. Boost was ALL OVER THE PLACE, Never the same.
Range was from 10.2 to 11.6 PSI.
Did the same test in 2nd gear and the range was 9.9 to 11.1
Sucks
-bobby
I don't follow you... What did you mean by "the nannies are all over the place" and "boost was all over the place"? 10.2 to 11.6 sounds like quite a power gain. How does this suck? Was it not pulling evenly? Was it bogging? Were the tires spinning?
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:41 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwebster View Post
I don't follow you... What did you mean by "the nannies are all over the place" and "boost was all over the place"? 10.2 to 11.6 sounds like quite a power gain. How does this suck? Was it not pulling evenly? Was it bogging? Were the tires spinning?
Meaning... different boost readings on each of the 7 runs ranging from 10.2 to 11.6. At 6k rpm

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Old 03-20-2018, 01:52 PM   #47
cwebster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby35ny View Post
Meaning... different boost readings on each of the 7 runs ranging from 10.2 to 11.6. At 6k rpm

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Okay, so how does that suck?
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Old 03-20-2018, 02:05 PM   #48
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“Unfortunately” (lol) for me, mine was set correctly from the factory. So no free gains for me. Dang.
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Old 03-20-2018, 03:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by bmclaurin View Post
“Unfortunately” (lol) for me, mine was set correctly from the factory. So no free gains for me. Dang.
How do you know it is correct? What is “correct”?

Last edited by Boost or bust; 03-20-2018 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:09 AM   #50
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Same for me!
How do you know if it’s Correct ?
Unscrew until there is a very little space...
Then screw to barely touch
I did less than a 1/8 of a turn
It was correct, no change :-(
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by cwebster View Post
Okay, so how does that suck?
Why can't it be a consistent 11.6 lbs of boost at 6000 rpm on every run? Why does it have to dip lower?

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Old 03-22-2018, 10:01 AM   #52
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Is there a reference in the service manual for this adjustment?
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:12 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby35ny View Post
Why can't it be a consistent 11.6 lbs of boost at 6000 rpm on every run? Why does it have to dip lower?

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Because of the torque control protocol in the computer. Throttle opening is not directly corresponding to your gas pedal. All of the sensors are constantly providing feedback to the computer. The computer then commands an acceptable throttle opening and allowable boost pressure. It can reduce the psi up or down regardless of where your right foot is. Welcome to Big Brother. You can massage some of this out with a custom tune.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:34 PM   #54
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Only glanced at the boost gauge once on a quick drive this morning. Boost was PAST the third line, with a small amount of real estate between the needle and third line.

Theoretically the third line is 11.25psi so I figure I was in the ballpark of 12psi. What is the car supposed to boost to stock? I’ll try to do a few more pulls this afternoon. I’m going to do a good rinseless and Reload process here shortly.
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:47 PM   #55
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^^^Answer to my question: 9.4psi according to this GM presser

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chev...owerhouse.html
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Old 03-24-2018, 01:55 PM   #56
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I only see the needle go barely past the 3rd mark so my calculation 8psi but I'm also at 7200 feet elevation so I would guess due to the air density it would be normal to be a few psi under sea level.
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