[meissen]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

If they didn't meet an arbitrary CAFE goal because they sold a bunch of cars that everybody wanted to buy, what law did they break? It's not like someone is going to go around and confiscate the cars people bought.

Just make all engines available because it is good business, and it is the right thing to do. if anyone makes a fuss, we will stand behind GM 100% because they did what was right.

You stated what they're breaking right in your question -- the CAFE standards. When an automaker does not meet CAFE standards they get fined. According to Wikipedia: "Currently CAFE penalty is $55 USD per vehicle for every 1 mpg under the standard. For the year 2006 Mercedes-Benz draw $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards." While the $55 per vehicle seems like chump change and could be just figured into the MSRP of the vehicle, it does add up... And I guarantee you if it came out in the news that GM paid a $30.3 million penalty for violating fuel economy standards that Toyota and Honda would have a PR field day rubbing it in GM's noses and all we'll hear about on the news for a week straight is about how "Government Motors" paid a penalty for being gas guzzlers.

[Mr. Wyndham]

To date, GM has never been in violation of CAFE. Despite the ridiculousness of the standard, they hold that as a point of pride. In order to do that, they need to control volume sold, in addition to the actual mpgs...

[meissen]

Yeah, I doubt GM (or any automaker for that matter) would knowingly violate CAFE standards. It's just bad PR.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by meissen

You stated what they're breaking right in your question -- the CAFE standards.

Now I get it. They broke a "standard".

I see how it works now. Okay! I JUST NOW set a standard that all cars must be offered with a V8 in perpetuity and there can be no cost adders for customers to pay who purchase one.

It is the Captain Awesome Fun Engines (CAFE) standard.

By Awsome Order I decree that by 2022 all cars with a V8 *MUST* cost 20% less than other models because V8s help contribute more to the highway fund through the gas tax and therefore we need to encourage V8 ownership.

Failure to comply will result in having to pay to Captain Awesome a penalty of $501.23 per vehicle sold, except ones sold on Tuesdays which results in a $497.35 penalty. (since Captain Awesome is magnanimous on Tuesdays)

Please inform them that they must adhere to my standard starting at midnight tonight, or begin paying the penalty.

Now that we have my CAFE standards in place, we can enjoy the V8 Camaro for eternity. Thank me!

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

To date, GM has never been in violation of CAFE. Despite the ridiculousness of the standard, they hold that as a point of pride. In order to do that, they need to control volume sold, in addition to the actual mpgs...

That's like being proud to have never denied a bully's demand for your lunch money on the playground, and proudly surviving starvation by eating unwanted table scraps scavenged from the trash bin.

[Captain Awesome]

Of course, nobody here has a sense of humor, so this topic will not survive. I have to resort to these "over the top" analogies because I am forbidden from explaining these subjects in their proper context. A fraction of people here are actually rooting for the V8 to be removed from the Camaro, and a real rational discussion could easily convince most of them why they are being misguided and have been given bad information. Logic and reason will win over 80% of these people because most of them have the ability to use critical thinking, but the culture has supressed it. If real discussion was not constantly stifled, everyone would work out their differences in a civil manner and we can come to mutually agreeable solutions to our differences.

I'm the bad guy apparently for wanting this.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer

You must be kidding. The forced induction - v8 forum has over 4000 threads with over 100,000 posts. We can anticipate that more than five of those people would own something else if the camaro didn't come with a v8. We can further anticipate that there are more than five of those people with well over 450 hp on the LS3 block. You could dig through the threads and find their numbers in the 100s.

The v6 as it was built simply cannot handle the numbers desired by enthusiasts. The v6 in the camaro is not built at the same level as the v6 in the GTR (cost of course). Building a v6 camaro with the same build quality of the GTR would make it cost-prohibitive for the vast majority of people who would consider v6 camaros.

Of course, there are some early adopters for the v6 turbo or supercharger in the camaro. Many of these people seem to be very happy. However, I have seen at least one of these people selling their supercharged v6 on these forums for, gasp, a v8 camaro. There is something about a v8 that is desirable for enthusiasts more than the average consumer.

First off, 450 HP for a TT V6 is nothing. Thats playing it way safe. Try 500 to 550 if you want to get a little more exciting. Going past that might start getting tough on the internals. Otherwise, we have a guy here with a V6 with forged internals pushing close to 700 HP (he consistently gets 550+ rwhp with an automatic transmission) on a safe tune. I'm sure they could probably go further if they had the means to do so.

You are right that some supercharged V6 owners are selling their cars, but part of that is because they aren't happy with their build quality and they are dumping them. Other kits are great quality and the owners are very happy with them. Running into the 12s in the 1/4 mile on bone stock tires and suspension is pretty good if you ask me.

Anyways, not trying to start a V6 vs V8 thing...just trying to enlighten those that may not be in the know about the V6, or those that just may not care.

Back to this thread...there will be a V8. GM would be dumb not to put a V8 in it. The end.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

GM would be dumb not to put a V8 in it. The end.

And we all know they would never do anything dumb! *cough* aztek *cough*

[Brian 1LE SS]

The V8 will never die. They just sound way to nice. You will never get that from a 6 or a 4, even a 10.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by Brian 1LE SS

The V8 will never die. They just sound way to nice. You will never get that from a 6 or a 4, even a 10.

In 2025 they will put speakers in the standard I-4's mufflers with DSP processing to simulate the V8 Sound.

GPS tracking will governor the engine to the posted speed limit too.

The U.S. Bill of Needs says nothing about needing a V8.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer

You must be kidding. The forced induction - v8 forum has over 4000 threads with over 100,000 posts. We can anticipate that more than five of those people would own something else if the camaro didn't come with a v8. We can further anticipate that there are more than five of those people with well over 450 hp on the LS3 block. You could dig through the threads and find their numbers in the 100s.

The v6 as it was built simply cannot handle the numbers desired by enthusiasts. The v6 in the camaro is not built at the same level as the v6 in the GTR (cost of course). Building a v6 camaro with the same build quality of the GTR would make it cost-prohibitive for the vast majority of people who would consider v6 camaros.

Of course, there are some early adopters for the v6 turbo or supercharger in the camaro. Many of these people seem to be very happy. However, I have seen at least one of these people selling their supercharged v6 on these forums for, gasp, a v8 camaro. There is something about a v8 that is desirable for enthusiasts more than the average consumer.

May not be built like a GTR, but it has beefier rods and crank than the LS3. I'm currently putting as much to the ground on 101 octane as a stock GTR does to the crank. Only interal mod was forged pistons.

[camaro-dreamer]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

May not be built like a GTR, but it has beefier rods and crank than the LS3. I'm currently putting as much to the ground on 101 octane as a stock GTR does to the crank. Only interal mod was forged pistons.

There can be no doubt that what you have done for the v6 platform in the camaro is incredible for both of the cars you have owned. Including the cost of the car, how does the cost stack up to putting down similar power in an LS3?

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by camaro-dreamer

There can be no doubt that what you have done for the v6 platform in the camaro is incredible for both of the cars you have owned. Including the cost of the car, how does the cost stack up to putting down similar power in an LS3?

Don't really know. The difference in price between similarly equipped V6 and V8s run anywhere from $8K+ (1LS vs 1SS) and about $5K (2LT vs 2SS). $8K will buy a nice supercharger that puts the V6 at about the same power levels as the L99, albeit with less power down low but somewhat lighter. I'm not sure how much money (car + mods) it would take to get an L99 to ~550 RWHP, but I think my 2LT with mods would be in the $40-42K range.

Of course, its not all about what's the cheapest way to do something, or even total cost of ownership. Part of it is just learning the new tech and seeing if you can do something different.

Besides, my comment was about the Nissan GTR, not other Camaros. Manufacturing technology has made great advances in recent years. They can build much more durable and reliable stuff than 10 years ago at lower cost. GM and Ford definitely seem to be taking advantage of this and building some really solid V6s, and now V8s.

[cmoz28]

Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama

a turbo 4-cylinder option as a base wouldnt be a deal breaker for me... but you know what I want to see? the 275hp turbo 2.0L in a Cruze SS... that would be a very nice car for the mid-$20k range, and a performance bargain like the turbo SS Cobalt was, high 13s/low 14s for $22,000 brand new and 320whp with bolt-ons and a tune was a reality... and in a 2800lb car, a stock SS Camaro wanted none

I agree the cruze really is an awsome car! I have driven a regal w/ the 2.0 turbo and it is a really quick car for what it is. They should make a crue ss!