[doc7000]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

As hard as it is for me to say, if I was blind to specs and just knew these two cars were a similar price, I would pick the beemer. It's dripping with class and design, and the Camaro just looks like, well, a Camaro. Ie: That performance car built by the company that also makes a lot of pickup trucks snd rental fleet cars. The poor man's Corvette, which unlike its bigger brother, has to wear the bowtie like a badge of middle class status, front and center.

The one thing that would keep me away from the BMW M2 is my friends 135i, I would assume that the M2 is similar to what that car was. Cheap hard plastics everywhere, rode to Vegas and back in it and we had to take a rest stop as both our backs where dying. That HUGE 3.0I-6 turbo engine doesn't like to be pushed in that tiny engine bay as he had to pay something like $1,500 for a water pump (and a few other items) at about 70,000 miles. Unless the M2 is dramatically (and I mean dramatically) better then that then its extremely over rated. It made the C6 Corvette interior like a Rolls Royce in comparions...... not sure how they got away with charging $45,000......

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by kcpoloman

What's wrong with being middle class exactly?

He just prooved that he's BMW material with that ridiculous statement. I could buy a BMW no problem. I don't because they are a bland money pits that are basically bought by people who think if they own one it will make them better than their neighbor. Rick Hendrick owns many chevys. I guess he's middle glass too. They are overpriced crap. It's just that some people with money care more about how they look to other people that only care about how they look. I know several people that have them. Believe me money pits.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

As hard as it is for me to say, if I was blind to specs and just knew these two cars were a similar price, I would pick the beemer. It's dripping with class and design, and the Camaro just looks like, well, a Camaro. Ie: That performance car built by the company that also makes a lot of pickup trucks snd rental fleet cars. The poor man's Corvette, which unlike its bigger brother, has to wear the bowtie like a badge of middle class status, front and center.

That statement parallels much of what's wrong with America....

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

That statement parallels much of what's wrong with America....

GM made their bed and now needs to offer quality, features and performance to earn trust back. I see it. Quality ratings are high and the product looks good. Anyone that knows the specs and chooses a Beemer is shallow

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

As hard as it is for me to say, if I was blind to specs and just knew these two cars were a similar price, I would pick the beemer. It's dripping with class and design, and the Camaro just looks like, well, a Camaro. Ie: That performance car built by the company that also makes a lot of pickup trucks snd rental fleet cars. The poor man's Corvette, which unlike its bigger brother, has to wear the bowtie like a badge of middle class status, front and center.

Lol. You do realize that BMW's are used by cabbies throughout Europe. Same for Mercedes. Can you define for us your idea of the income average that makes up the middle class?

[Techn9cian805]

Originally Posted by kcpoloman

What's wrong with being middle class exactly?

Nothing at all. But most people would rather buy Levi's over walmart brand jeans, or buy a Rolex over a Casio... If given the chance, most would rather look rich even if they aren't than look middle class or poor. and that's why BMWs sell so well, its a status symbol for the wealthy, as is Chevy a status symbol(or lack there of) for the middle class

Originally Posted by titanfan

Lol. You do realize that BMW's are used by cabbies throughout Europe. Same for Mercedes. Can you define for us your idea of the income average that makes up the middle class?

apples and oranges, buddy. keep in mind that Europe doesn't seek to profit off medicare and many countries in Europe offer free college educations, Germany included, so over there having the money to get a BMW isn't as difficult as it is in America. Also, cabs are far more widely used in Europe than in America, which is now overrun with Uber users, so you can be assured that cabbies in Europe are making a shit load in profits to afford some BMW and Benz's in their fleets.

Also, the reason why BMW and Benz's are considered status symbols here is because they are the best in class luxury brands in the world, and don't have a long history of using cheap material to build their cars, or have a shit load of QC issues like all American brands do

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Techn9cian805

Nothing at all. But most people would rather buy Levi's over walmart brand jeans, or buy a Rolex over a Casio... If given the chance, most would rather look rich even if they aren't than look middle class or poor. and that's why BMWs sell so well, its a status symbol for the wealthy, as is Chevy a status symbol(or lack there of) for the middle class

There are a ton of chevy's out of reach to todays middle class unfortunately.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Techn9cian805

Nothing at all. But most people would rather buy Levi's over walmart brand jeans, or buy a Rolex over a Casio... If given the chance, most would rather look rich even if they aren't than look middle class or poor. and that's why BMWs sell so well, its a status symbol for the wealthy, as is Chevy a status symbol(or lack there of) for the middle class

That was the point I was trying to make. I think BMW owners are knobheads who don't know what white lines mean in parking lots mean. I own a Camaro, so obviously I was speaking from the perspective of an outsider, presumably one who knows nothing about car specs or build quality. I was trying to communicate the fact that it's all about brand image for some people.

I would take a Camaro over a BMW in a heartbeat, But for the rest of people, they see a shiny BMW and don't think about long term cost, planned obsolesce, the fact that build quality and has in fact gone down over the last few years, etc. To many people, the Camaro is a symbol of the middle class, but that class is shrinking, and the car is steadily getting priced outside its target audience. By all accounts, it can be well worth the money, but the people with the money to buy it may not even think it's worthwhile to do any basic homework to discover that prior making a purchasing decision.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by 90503

That's a nice review of GM's past, I suppose....

I think it's unfair though to put all that baggage on the 6thGen Camaro and it's customers as if their decision to purchase or not purchase, will somehow produce a miracle that redirects the course of history.

In your opinion the Camaro may not now be the greatest coupe available in the history of automaking, but I think the folks buying it are entitled to think so. They can't control the decisions of management, nor crusade to right the wrongs you think have occurred.

The Camaro's strength throughout the years has been its image - it's BRAND. It is the image of a muscle car. It is the performance car for Average American Joe, loud, rough and mean. Here is the problem:
Now we have:

1.) A less muscular car that is refined and easy to drive, not violent and mean, so it alienates the muscle-heads.
2.) A car priced above luxury brands that Average American Joe cannot afford.
3.) A car that handles great with no brand image of great handling, so no one other than Camaro loyalists knows the statistics.

So who is going to buy this car? The traditional Camaro loyalists can't afford it, and the dudes with money wouldn't be caught dead in an American muscle car.

I love the new Camaro, but it's way too expensive for my blood, so I won't be buying for quite some time. Expect sales figures to struggle in 2016. It makes more sense for Average American Joe to buy a Mustang and save 10 grand.

[ChocoTaco369]

Originally Posted by motorhead

There are a ton of chevy's out of reach to todays middle class unfortunately.

Most people do not want wealth. It takes hard work and discipline with an attention to personal financial management and living below our means to achieve long term wealth. Most people are not willing to stick to a plan like that.

What people want is the PERCEPTION of wealth. Why would the average American spend $50,000 on a Chevy when they can get a BMW for $36,000? Most people never look past the brand emblem. A $50,000 Camaro is absolutely laughable. Expect Mustang sales to DESTROY Camaro sales in 2016.

[kcpoloman]

Originally Posted by motorhead

He just prooved that he's BMW material with that ridiculous statement. I could buy a BMW no problem. I don't because they are a bland money pits that are basically bought by people who think if they own one it will make them better than their neighbor. Rick Hendrick owns many chevys. I guess he's middle glass too. They are overpriced crap. It's just that some people with money care more about how they look to other people that only care about how they look. I know several people that have them. Believe me money pits.

Agree. Who cares about the damn emblem on the car. I respect fast cars period. Is the new Ford GT any less badass cause it has a blue oval on it? Not really. I guess some are more into self image than actually being a good old fashion car guy. I will wear the Bowtie with pride.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369

Most people do not want wealth. It takes hard work and discipline with an attention to personal financial management and living below our means to achieve long term wealth. Most people are not willing to stick to a plan like that.

What people want is the PERCEPTION of wealth. Why would the average American spend $50,000 on a Chevy when they can get a BMW for $36,000? Most people never look past the brand emblem. A $50,000 Camaro is absolutely laughable. Expect Mustang sales to DESTROY Camaro sales in 2016.

For the folks that are only looking for the perception of wealth, the 36k BMW doesn't perceive that. It proves what their true intenions are. The wealthly dont settle for that one unless maybe for the kids. Those folks aren't fooling anyone. If I ever fell and hit my head and then decided to look at BMWs, nothing less than an M3 coupe would be the starting point before I would ever consider turning my 50k Chevy in for a BMW. Oh and um, you can't get crab an M3 for 36k. Not new anyhow. Like always happens here in this fourm. It's always apples to oranges comparisons so people can try to proove whatever point.

[Factorypilot]

The only thing that turns me off about the BMW (although I do like the looks of the M series with the flared fenders and all) is that (where I live) every third or fourth car is a BMW, and with few exceptions they all look exactly the same.

I understand they are a maintenance nightmare (oil changes in the hundreds of dollars) and with the exception of the 100K + GTS models, you're going to be slapped down by the "middle class" Camaro, ZL1, etc. I also think the Gen6 has a much better interior.

I suppose if I was single and out to impress the ladies, I may consider a M4. But performance wise, 50K for a turbo I-6 gives me pause. I will say that if the interior was cool and it had the kind of thrust the new SS has, I might lean BMW... like I said because I like the way it looks; but even then it seems like EVERYONE drives one so... I just don't know. You really have to roll out some big bucks in order to get something that would perform as well as the new SS.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by motorhead

For the folks that are only looking for the perception of wealth, the 36k BMW doesn't perceive that. It proves what their true intenions are. The wealthly dont settle for that one unless maybe for the kids. Those folks aren't fooling anyone. If I ever fell and hit my head and then decided to look at BMWs, nothing less than an M3 coupe would be the starting point before I would ever consider turning my 50k Chevy in for a BMW. Oh and um, you can't get crab an M3 for 36k. Not new anyhow. Like always happens here in this fourm. It's always apples to oranges comparisons so people can try to proove whatever point.

For clarity. Starting at $65,995 then add options