[6spdhyperblue]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I think the biggest problem with sales is the direction they have taken away from the retro look, and i would bet that the 2019 face lift will not be retro at all . As far as the utility of the vehicle goes after all its a camaro ,no one needs a camaro . Its a great getaway weekend car and fun car, i would love to see an all wheel drive version. Visibility has never been an issue with me at all but until the auto magazine writers see out of like they were in a Camry we will hear about it.

They make the v6 and 4cyl models in awd they would sell a lot more of them

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Nicul15

They make the v6 and 4cyl models in awd they would sell a lot more of them

Especially if it was a twin turbo V6 awd camaro

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

Especially if it was a twin turbo V6 awd camaro

I would kill for the twin turbo V6 I would a hundred percent choose that over the V8

I would pay extra for it over the V8 in fact

you're probably right they should make all wheel drive an option on all models including the V8 model why would you skip that one and makes no sense. they should also give it more interior room though if we're looking to get more families to buy

But that's the guy that's been driving his in the snow I can tell you that the manual transmission V6 rear-wheel drive current model in snow and ice mode is quite good

[metros11]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I think the biggest problem with sales is the direction they have taken away from the retro look, and i would bet that the 2019 face lift will not be retro at all .

That's an opinion, and a subjective one at that. I personally prefer the 6 look to the 5, far more. IMO the Mustang sells more units simply because it's a better looking car (again subjective) and is a bit easier to live with if you're really cross shopping.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The ZL1 competes with the Hellcat in straight line (power to weight) and annihilates it in every other performance measure at a lower price.

As of 2018, the Corvette has the LT1 and LT4. The Camaro has both and neither were derated.

Chevy expected the GT to bump as high as 475 HP over a year ago. Dual-injection from the new LT5 would be reason for a new LT2. The LS7 Z/28 was a late development to respond to market conditions.

Chevy Performance seems pretty serious about Camaro. 10 best three consecutive years

Power to weight is not horsepower. Sure, Dodge built a boat with a big engine. That doesn't mean GM should build "good enough". What happens if Dodge builds a Challenger than doesn't weigh 4500 lbs with over 700 hp?

SAE certified engines don't get derated. That doesn't mean the Camaro will get the LT5.

The Camaro is a parts bin car. Just because the parts are good and the people putting the parts in place are excellent doesn't change that. Imagine if the ZL1 didn't get stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower. We could have had a 700 hp ZL1, but we don't get that because Corvette dictates power. All manual Camaros are stuck with AFM valve train components, because Corvette dictates what goes into the engines. The Z/28 won't be build this generation because Corvette abandoned naturally aspirated power for top models.

The Camaro is given a little box to work with. Just because the engineers behind it are amazing and can make it work doesn't mean the Camaro gets the respect it deserves.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Power to weight is not horsepower. Sure, Dodge built a boat with a big engine. That doesn't mean GM should build "good enough". What happens if Dodge builds a Challenger than doesn't weigh 4500 lbs with over 700 hp?

SAE certified engines don't get derated. That doesn't mean the Camaro will get the LT5.

The Camaro is a parts bin car. Just because the parts are good and the people putting the parts in place are excellent doesn't change that. Imagine if the ZL1 didn't get stuck with the tiny 1.7 liter blower. We could have had a 700 hp ZL1, but we don't get that because Corvette dictates power. All manual Camaros are stuck with AFM valve train components, because Corvette dictates what goes into the engines. The Z/28 won't be build this generation because Corvette abandoned naturally aspirated power for top models.

The Camaro is given a little box to work with. Just because the engineers behind it are amazing and can make it work doesn't mean the Camaro gets the respect it deserves.

Power to weight and measurable performance are far more important to powertrain engineers than stated horsepower numbers. That's why GM doesn't lose any sleep over Hellcat. FCA is stuck putting Hellcat in big heavy vehicles because that's pretty much all they have. If FCA was developing a lighter, more robust architecture, GM and Ford would already know about it (that was my job until I retired in March).

There is the "potential" that FCA could use the Alfa Romeo Giulia architecture for Dodge performance cars (same formula as Camaro using the Cadillac Alpha architecture) but it is a very expensive architecture and could also require using the much more expensive Ferrari-derived V6 DOHC Twin Turbo instead of the familiar Hemi / Hellcat. That or significantly revise the Giulia architecture to accept the Hemi. FCA has bigger problems that require more money at a much higher priority, so I would be totally shocked if they spent money to make that happen.

[Bhobbs]

And what about Ford? Ford has shown they are more than willing to push the envelope when it comes to power. The S550 isn’t that much heavier than the Alpha. Sure, the handling may not be up to par but it isn’t that far off.

[SoCalThug]

Yes i wouldnt count dodge out. If you think about it there way overdoe for a new look. They already have the fastest motor. If they come out with a new nice looking car, lose weight and somehow integrate viper suspension or a new lightweight suspension on the next gen challenger, they will sell like hotcakes and be ahead of the top 2 at the track and drag strip

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

And what about Ford? Ford has shown they are more than willing to push the envelope when it comes to power. The S550 isn’t that much heavier than the Alpha. Sure, the handling may not be up to par but it isn’t that far off.

The S550 chassis is a modified S197 chassis. It is actually very heavy. The Mustang would handle far far better if it had actually come with a new chassis. Ford won't design a new one anytime soon. It's just too much money and they are planning to layoff 10k engineers.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

And what about Ford? Ford has shown they are more than willing to push the envelope when it comes to power. The S550 isn’t that much heavier than the Alpha. Sure, the handling may not be up to par but it isn’t that far off.

Originally Posted by SoCalThug

Yes i wouldnt count dodge out. If you think about it there way overdoe for a new look. They already have the fastest motor. If they come out with a new nice looking car, lose weight and somehow integrate viper suspension or a new lightweight suspension on the next gen challenger, they will sell like hotcakes and be ahead of the top 2 at the track and drag strip

GM was in a very unique position in 2010 and again in 2016. They had RWD architectures being used in other high volume vehicles that were sufficient (2010 Zeta) and even optimal (2016 Alpha) for application to a sports car. They didn't have to invest anywhere from $.5 billion or more to develop a strong, lightweight, super handling architecture. If that were not true, there might never have been a Gen 5. But Zeta was in use in Australia at fairly decent volume, plus some usage in the US. Adding Camaro was a modification, not an all new. And then Alpha, originally expected to be a Cadillac-only architecture offered a stiffer, lighter, better handling option that just worked. Camaro volume helps Cadillac pay for the platform and vice versa.

Ford had the Fox platform, but it was pretty much dedicated to Mustang, since they really don't have another RWD car in their portfolio. No opportunity to share cost with other vehicle programs, so there was only so much they could / would do with it without ruining the cost position of Mustang. It was a fairly light architecture. Not as light as Alpha, but still pretty good. They are making some of those moves now with the 2018. Adding IRS will add weight and cost. Adding MRC will also add cost. Keep an eye on the Mustang price tag. Especially performance variants. It's gonna start to look a lot like Camaro.

Dodge is in a much different (worse) position. They have a number of RWD cars to share the cost of a RWD architecture. And they do all currently share the same architecture. It's an old architecture that was passed down from Mercedes in the old DaimlerChrysler days. It's old tech as far as chassis technology is concerned and it is heavy. They've done a lot to make it work, but they're pretty much at the limit, especially given what GM has done with Alpha and Ford is doing with Fox. It will take a big commitment on FCA's part to either develop another RWD architecture to house all of those vehicles or separate them. Chrysler 300 is about 35% of the RWD car volume. All indications are it will go FWD in either 2020 or 21. This is a much needed fuel economy play. That leaves Charger and Challenger alone to carry their RWD products, without the volume of the 300 to help cover the cost. It's not clear how much FCA can afford to spend to redesign the RWD platform while they are focused on spending major dollars to get caught up on FWD car fuel economy, hybridization of their Jeep portfolio, and continuing to try to bring Alfa to the US. They could potentially use the Alfa Romeo Giulia architecture for Charger and Challenger, but it is also low volume and very expensive and might require bringing in other expensive powertrains or committing to some serious engineering work to fit Hemi under the hood. The decision to take 300 FWD instead of moving it to Giulia says a lot. It is definitely not clear which way they will go with Charger / Challenger. In a best case situation, FCA will find themselves in a Mustang situation with a dedicated platform, but they won't have the money to spend on it that Ford has.

**** EDIT **** Interesting.... I just checked one of my more reliable data sources. They show Charger and Challenger being built on the same platform as Giulia starting in 2020. Things just got interesting!!!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The S550 chassis is a modified S197 chassis. It is actually very heavy. The Mustang would handle far far better if it had actually come with a new chassis. Ford won't design a new one anytime soon. It's just too much money and they are planning to layoff 10k engineers.

Lighter than Zeta (Gen 5 Camaro) heavier than Alpha (Gen 6 Camaro). Didn't know Ford was planning to lay off so many engineers. I'll have to look for that. I live scary close to Ford World HQ (less than 10 miles) so it could really impact local economy.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The S550 chassis is a modified S197 chassis. It is actually very heavy. The Mustang would handle far far better if it had actually come with a new chassis. Ford won't design a new one anytime soon. It's just too much money and they are planning to layoff 10k engineers.

It’s not a modified S197. Furthermore it’s actually lighter than the late S197, it’s tge overly heavy IRS that added the heft to the tune of 125lbs

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

**** EDIT **** Interesting.... I just checked one of my more reliable data sources. They show Charger and Challenger being built on the same platform as Giulia starting in 2020. Things just got interesting!!!

Good for Charger and Challenger. I hope they can retain the Dodge power.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

GM was in a very unique position in 2010 and again in 2016. They had RWD architectures being used in other high volume vehicles that were sufficient (2010 Zeta) and even optimal (2016 Alpha) for application to a sports car. They didn't have to invest anywhere from $.5 billion or more to develop a strong, lightweight, super handling architecture. If that were not true, there might never have been a Gen 5. But Zeta was in use in Australia at fairly decent volume, plus some usage in the US. Adding Camaro was a modification, not an all new. And then Alpha, originally expected to be a Cadillac-only architecture offered a stiffer, lighter, better handling option that just worked. Camaro volume helps Cadillac pay for the platform and vice versa.

Ford had the Fox platform, but it was pretty much dedicated to Mustang, since they really don't have another RWD car in their portfolio. No opportunity to share cost with other vehicle programs, so there was only so much they could / would do with it without ruining the cost position of Mustang. It was a fairly light architecture. Not as light as Alpha, but still pretty good. They are making some of those moves now with the 2018. Adding IRS will add weight and cost. Adding MRC will also add cost. Keep an eye on the Mustang price tag. Especially performance variants. It's gonna start to look a lot like Camaro.

Dodge is in a much different (worse) position. They have a number of RWD cars to share the cost of a RWD architecture. And they do all currently share the same architecture. It's an old architecture that was passed down from Mercedes in the old DaimlerChrysler days. It's old tech as far as chassis technology is concerned and it is heavy. They've done a lot to make it work, but they're pretty much at the limit, especially given what GM has done with Alpha and Ford is doing with Fox. It will take a big commitment on FCA's part to either develop another RWD architecture to house all of those vehicles or separate them. Chrysler 300 is about 35% of the RWD car volume. All indications are it will go FWD in either 2020 or 21. This is a much needed fuel economy play. That leaves Charger and Challenger alone to carry their RWD products, without the volume of the 300 to help cover the cost. It's not clear how much FCA can afford to spend to redesign the RWD platform while they are focused on spending major dollars to get caught up on FWD car fuel economy, hybridization of their Jeep portfolio, and continuing to try to bring Alfa to the US. They could potentially use the Alfa Romeo Giulia architecture for Charger and Challenger, but it is also low volume and very expensive and might require bringing in other expensive powertrains or committing to some serious engineering work to fit Hemi under the hood. The decision to take 300 FWD instead of moving it to Giulia says a lot. It is definitely not clear which way they will go with Charger / Challenger. In a best case situation, FCA will find themselves in a Mustang situation with a dedicated platform, but they won't have the money to spend on it that Ford has.

**** EDIT **** Interesting.... I just checked one of my more reliable data sources. They show Charger and Challenger being built on the same platform as Giulia starting in 2020. Things just got interesting!!!

Technically the Mustang already costs as much as the Camaro. Yes, it starts at $35,995 for the GT, but if you don't want a calculator screen on your dash you'll need to step up to the 301A package which features such awesome additions as an automatic temperature control, USB ports, Apple CarPlay and Android Auto support, Sirius XM radio and a touch screen. So for $2K you get what a base Camaro SS offers, at exactly the same price, $37,995.

PS. How do I subscribe to your posts? You have some really interesting info to share.