[6 Shooter]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepa...ers_42_billion

[naSSty1]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Nice copy and paste from GM heritage site. You know it isn't like they did all of that for free. Plus, there were many companies and people involved with the war effort. That's only one of the reasons why the people from that time period are considered to be the greatest generation.

Originally Posted by rez333

Hey is there a "World War 2" equivalent of "Godwin's Law"?


If only I fought in WW2 - imagine the things I could get away with because of it!

Ya think.

And hell yes I copy and pasted this. Not from a GM site but it still describes some of the effort that was made by GM. Should they pay it back? Hell yeah they should. Do I find myself worrying about it to the point that I lose sleep? Hell no I don't. I find myself worrying about other issues that I won't bring up due to sensitive subject/people. Point in case, this thread.

[Sax1031]

I am not arguing that GM/Chrysler should have been allowed to fail. That would have been devastating on the economy.

I am just keeping the story honest on taxpayer money and the big 3.

[_Nick_]

Originally Posted by Mayhem

Without one or the other, these cars would be no where near as awesome as they are. Competition alone has inspired constant growth in design and engineering that has propelled vehicles from all brands well beyond what anyone could have dreamed up when these companies first began. Be glad the competition exists.

People on here seem to forget, the Mustang was the reason the Camaro was conjured up in the first place, and also the reason it was brought back.

The Ford hatred on this site is pretty silly.

[Number 3]

I've posted far too many times Ford was the biggest piggy at the trough for the DOE loans. I saw the list of technologies they wanted loans for and it was laughable.

Also I've asked if you borrowed $10,000 from the bank because you thought you had an emergency but then realized you wre ok and paid the $10,000 back were you using your money to repay the loans or the banks? And does it even matter since the debt is zero either way?

And lastly a trivia question.......what company stood up after 9/11 to offer huge deals I. An effort to keep the economy moving? Hint it wasn't Coke offering 10 cents off a bottle and it wasnt McDonalds offering free fries.

And engine thinking Ford is so awesome should simply look at Europe. Ooooooops.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I've posted far too many times Ford was the biggest piggy at the trough for the DOE loans. I saw the list of technologies they wanted loans for and it was laughable.

Also I've asked if you borrowed $10,000 from the bank because you thought you had an emergency but then realized you wre ok and paid the $10,000 back were you using your money to repay the loans or the banks? And does it even matter since the debt is zero either way?

And lastly a trivia question.......what company stood up after 9/11 to offer huge deals I. An effort to keep the economy moving? Hint it wasn't Coke offering 10 cents off a bottle and it wasnt McDonalds offering free fries.

And engine thinking Ford is so awesome should simply look at Europe. Ooooooops.

Ford = took loans that were offered with extremely low interest rates in hard times after mortgaging nearly all assets to restructure. A sound business decision.

GM = took loans and tens of billions of dollars in free money (in an inflated exchange for equity) that will never be accounted for.

They are simply not comparable. FoMoCo turned around in one of the most successful restructurings in recent history and GM went bankrupt, restructured under government ownership, and is now flourishing as a new corporation. Alan Mulally worked miracles with Ford while GM was gutted and thrown money because it was necessary to keep the doors open. These Ford loans will be paid back, the equity the gov holds in GM will NEVER be valuable enough to recover the total invested. Debate cars all you want, but Ford leadership (post 2006) has been a bright light in dark times within the auto industry and it's damn near disrespectful to even try to argue that it's remotely similar to that financial travesty of a company that was Old GM.

[KXRM]

Originally Posted by naSSty1

Honestly? it sounds like a lot of you know nothing about what the auto industry has done for this country. General Motors converted all of its production to the Allied war effort and delivered more than $12 billion worth of goods, ranging from airplanes to tanks, marine diesel engines, trucks, machine guns, and shells. No other manufacturer delivered as much material to the Allied forces. Here is a list of the WWII General Motors War Material Production 1940-45:

198,000 Diesel engines for tanks & landing craft
206,000 Airplane engines
13,000 Complete bombers and fighter planes
97,000 Aircraft propellors
301,000 Aircraft gyroscopes
38,000 Tanks, tank destroyers and armored vehicles
854,000 Trucks, including amhibious DUKWs
190,000 Cannons
1,900,000 Machine guns and submachine guns
3,142,000 Carbines
3,826,000 Electric motors
11,111,000 Fuses
360,000,000 Ball and roller bearings
119,562,000 Shells
39,181,000 Cartridge cases

Honestly, I would bail them out too.

We should have probably let Jerry Sandusky off too, he did all those charitable things for children after all. I know my analogy is a little dramatic but the past deeds, especially from 70 years ago are just not enough to warrant the travesty that has been happening the last 30. As others have commented, they got paid for all that so it's moot.

[Brutal SS]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

These Ford loans will be paid back, the equity the gov holds in GM will NEVER be valuable enough to recover the total invested.

It will be if they start making a new Z28!

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Brutal SS

It will be if they start making a new Z28!

[NASTY99Z28]

Originally Posted by Mayhem

Just curious... Why is it some people seem to be under the impression that the EV development has somehow contributed to keeping Ford afloat...... and is the reason they didn't require bailout?? To my knowledge, (correct me if I am wrong in thinking this way)... the profits and stability of the company from bailout time until present... have very little to do with the EV development. The company has been stable without yet seeing the EV projects come to full fruition to a point where they are turning a profit. If anything, it cost them more during that time, than it made them so far. So, I fail to see it being a factor in why they didn't go under... More of an investment for the future?

EV's were merely work on the side, aiming to keep them advancing technologically and keep them competitive in the long run... Nothing to do with short-term and present financial stability.

I'll still never understand why people gotta blindly decide to parade about supporting one or the other.

I am happy that I get to enjoy MORE vehicles, because I am not a raging fanatic, blinded by stupidity and shunning other brands because of a logo and desperately wasting my time to seek out reasons to hate them more. I'd rather drool over the best vehicles every company has to offer than wait for one company to make something interesting/new.

Some of yall seem hug deprived.

And these debates are silly. Two big successful companies with a long history, and a lot of awesome vehicles made.

Without one or the other, these cars would be no where near as awesome as they are. Competition alone has inspired constant growth in design and engineering that has propelled vehicles from all brands well beyond what anyone could have dreamed up when these companies first began. Be glad the competition exists.

If you do some searching you will find it wasn't "just" for ev's. Alot of that money was used to retool old plants for new smaller more fuel efficient cars so to hang up on the ev's isn't a true representation of what the money was used for. Really it was just a little bit of luck that the government stepped in when they did to help out or even ford would have filed for bankruptcy. If any of you guys feel that ford wasn't dare I say bailed out/prevented from going bankrupt just do some searching and you will find plenty of good reading.

As far as the companies being held accountable for the money they borrowed they should have to pay it all back plus interest just like we would have to if we borrowed money. Now the money that won't be paid back for whatever reasons you can't completely blame GM for that since it was the government that agreed to those stipulations which is yet another reason why we are so screwed up these days. Hell how many of the people that trash GM for taking money and not paying it back have filed bankruptcy themselves? Alot but because it wasn't such a large amount or directly paid for by tax payers they feel it's ok right? Wrong! That debt tricked back down to every single one if us so take your share of blame right along with everyone else who just said screw it and let all there debt go and blame it on the banks for letting them do it. End rant.....

[Berean]

Originally Posted by NASTY99Z28

As far as the companies being held accountable for the money they borrowed they should have to pay it all back plus interest just like we would have to if we borrowed money. Now the money that won't be paid back for whatever reasons you can't completely blame GM for that since it was the government that agreed to those stipulations which is yet another reason why we are so screwed up these days. Hell how many of the people that trash GM for taking money and not paying it back have filed bankruptcy themselves? Alot but because it wasn't such a large amount or directly paid for by tax payers they feel it's ok right? Wrong! That debt tricked back down to every single one if us so take your share of blame right along with everyone else who just said screw it and let all there debt go and blame it on the banks for letting them do it. End rant.....

I think this is a good point. I'd add though that personal bankruptcy is part of a larger problem. Society in general no longer has much respect for property rights.

Look at any retail store. They just build in 10-15% overhead for theft and pass it along to the other customers. When an employee does the right thing and stops a thief, it's the employee that gets in trouble, and maybe fired.

When the cops are called for theft, and the suspect is even identified on store cameras, they still blow it off. Cops treat ordinary theft like jaywalking. Cops don't care, because their communities don't care.

Bottom line, society as a whole has been conditioned to think little of property rights (you didn't build that!), so it's not much of a stretch for people to declare bankruptcy, pass the cost to others, and move on without blinking an eye.

As a larger point though, the general lack of respect, makes it FAR more easier for GOVERNMENT to take people's property and money and squander it as they see fit for their politically connected friends.

Look at how many people right here on this forum defend the bailouts even though the executives and unions got rich off taxpayer money while the SECURED BONDHOLDERS had their money taken.

In a just world, private property would be respected as much as personal rights, including using deadly force to justly defend it. And don't think your personal rights are safe now either. It's a slippery slope, and we're already half way down it.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Berean

I think this is a good point. I'd add though that personal bankruptcy is part of a larger problem. Society in general no longer has much respect for property rights.

Look at any retail store. They just build in 10-15% overhead for theft and pass it along to the other customers. When an employee does the right thing and stops a thief, it's the employee that gets in trouble, and maybe fired.

When the cops are called for theft, and the suspect is even identified on store cameras, they still blow it off. Cops treat ordinary theft like jaywalking. Cops don't care, because their communities don't care.

Bottom line, society as a whole has been conditioned to think little of property rights (you didn't build that!), so it's not much of a stretch for people to declare bankruptcy, pass the cost to others, and move on without blinking an eye.

As a larger point though, the general lack of respect, makes it FAR more easier for GOVERNMENT to take people's property and money and squander it as they see fit for their politically connected friends.

Look at how many people right here on this forum defend the bailouts even though the executives and unions got rich off taxpayer money while the SECURED BONDHOLDERS had their money taken.

In a just world, private property would be respected as much as personal rights, including using deadly force to justly defend it. And don't think your personal rights are safe now either. It's a slippery slope, and we're already half way down it.

In a just world corporate pay would be based on performance and executives of failing companies would not walk away with eight and nine figure pay packages when their corporation goes under and their investors lose everything. In a just world my graduate level economics textbooks would not be published by McGraw-Hill, of which Standard and Poor's is a subsidiary. This isn't a just world. It's a world built on manipulating the system and sheepies buying every out-of-context POS explanation they want to believe in because the truth doesn't suit their taste. On the contrary, I would hate to see what our manufacturing base would look like now if we hadn't bailed the auto industry.

[TOBY J]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Ford = took loans that were offered with extremely low interest rates in hard times after mortgaging nearly all assets to restructure. A sound business decision.

GM = took loans and tens of billions of dollars in free money (in an inflated exchange for equity) that will never be accounted for.

They are simply not comparable. FoMoCo turned around in one of the most successful restructurings in recent history and GM went bankrupt, restructured under government ownership, and is now flourishing as a new corporation. Alan Mulally worked miracles with Ford while GM was gutted and thrown money because it was necessary to keep the doors open. These Ford loans will be paid back, the equity the gov holds in GM will NEVER be valuable enough to recover the total invested. Debate cars all you want, but Ford leadership (post 2006) has been a bright light in dark times within the auto industry and

it's damn near disrespectful to even try to argue that it's remotely similar to that financial travesty of a company that was Old GM.

WINNER... WINNER

[TOBY J]

Originally Posted by Blue Maro Demon

I find this very amusing because alot of the Ford fans always say Government Motors to GM yet only Ford owes money to the Government not GM or Chrystler. Ford borrowed money the same time that they did.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul...-surprise-you/