[JoansDriver]

Cool that you weren't really interested in facts. Enjoy the car, but don't buy it with the allusion that you're saving the environment.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

It absolutely does not. I don't know where the coal plant(s) are in Quebec, but if they only produce around 1% of the electricity for the province, and he lives in a city with more than 1/3 the population ... chances are slim to nil that the bulk of his juice comes from that high-carbon black rock known as coal.

Admittedly, I'm not sure where the power comes from specifically in Quebec.

What I do know is that coal makes up the biggest share of US electricity production, with coal's share in my state particularly high. As I understand it, in about half of the states, driving an electric car generates more emissions than a gas car because of it, with several of the remaining states roughly breaking even.

Only in states where nuclear and hydro-electric are significant players does the emission balance work out in an electric car's favor...and the environmental movement has long fought against both energy sources (really, all energy sources to be fair).

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Admittedly, I'm not sure where the power comes from specifically in Quebec.

What I do know is that coal makes up the biggest share of US electricity production, with coal's share in my state particularly high. As I understand it, in about half of the states, driving an electric car generates more emissions than a gas car because of it, with several of the remaining states roughly breaking even.

Only in states where nuclear and hydro-electric are significant players does the emission balance work out in an electric car's favor...and the environmental movement has long fought against both energy sources (really, all energy sources to be fair).

Upon which you get into the issue of source vs tail pipe emissions. Whats worse for the environment: multiple refineries turning ore into batteries, or multiple refineries turning crude into gasoline. The overall equation changes based on where you live, and even then it probably borders on impossible to get reliable data on what is really going on. For myself, I know that I live area near a massive hydro-electric plant (Niagara Falls), with a smaller coal plant (Nanticoke -single largest coal plant in NA, I think), and numerous wind turbines being proposed (with strong opposition), with nuclear nearby to take up the slack. Going the EV route, for CO2 emissions is a pretty easy choice -if thats what I was concerned about. But I'm not.

Personally, I usually go back to my days of Scouting. Among other things, a good Scout is "wise in the use of his resources". Spending a lot more for a marginal gain is silly. Spending a little more for a large gain is easy. Question is, what is a little, what is a lot, and what do we have to gain?

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Upon which you get into the issue of source vs tail pipe emissions. Whats worse for the environment: multiple refineries turning ore into batteries, or multiple refineries turning crude into gasoline. The overall equation changes based on where you live, and even then it probably borders on impossible to get reliable data on what is really going on. For myself, I know that I live area near a massive hydro-electric plant (Niagara Falls), with a smaller coal plant (Nanticoke -single largest coal plant in NA, I think), and numerous wind turbines being proposed (with strong opposition), with nuclear nearby to take up the slack. Going the EV route, for CO2 emissions is a pretty easy choice -if thats what I was concerned about. But I'm not.

Personally, I usually go back to my days of Scouting. Among other things, a good Scout is "wise in the use of his resources". Spending a lot more for a marginal gain is silly. Spending a little more for a large gain is easy. Question is, what is a little, what is a lot, and what do we have to gain?

Personally, I don't care much about CO2 emissions, either, as I think the "danger" of it is grossly exaggerated. I just bring it up, because that is usually what people mean when they say "pollution" or "emissions" nowadays, and that's what I was responding to.

Honestly, I think electric cars are pretty pointless. The type of pollution that results from producing those batteries, at least in my opinion, is the type that we should really be worried about, not CO2, which I find to be rather benign. They still have a very long way to go to be economically viable enough to sell, at least to people who don't shop entirely based on a cause, which is most of us. And if electric cars are ever going to be anything but a very, very tiny niche, they are going to have to be made out of materials that actually exist in the quantities required to build cars on a large scale.

I generally shake my head at how concerned people get over "carbon emissions," but that is probably at least partly a symptom of a good thing. Nowadays, for most of the US and Canada, the types of truly nasty pollutants that really do cause serious, direct problems, have been so minimized that people have the luxury of being able to focus so much attention what really isn't "pollution" at all in any conventional or traditional sense.

Downside to that is too much free time combined with an overly active, yet under occupied mind tends to promote the taking leave of reality.

[Valkyrja]

There are 2 or 3 Tesla's near where I work. Very nice looking car and one of those kinds that looks much better in the real vs a picture. I have not talked to their owners at all so I have no other feedback.

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Upon which you get into the issue of source vs tail pipe emissions. Whats worse for the environment: multiple refineries turning ore into batteries, or multiple refineries turning crude into gasoline. The overall equation changes based on where you live, and even then it probably borders on impossible to get reliable data on what is really going on. For myself, I know that I live area near a massive hydro-electric plant (Niagara Falls), with a smaller coal plant (Nanticoke -single largest coal plant in NA, I think), and numerous wind turbines being proposed (with strong opposition), with nuclear nearby to take up the slack. Going the EV route, for CO2 emissions is a pretty easy choice -if thats what I was concerned about. But I'm not.

Personally, I usually go back to my days of Scouting. Among other things, a good Scout is "wise in the use of his resources". Spending a lot more for a marginal gain is silly. Spending a little more for a large gain is easy. Question is, what is a little, what is a lot, and what do we have to gain?

That's also not taking into account the Geology professor from Ohio State who recently discovered a way to burn coal without producing any emissions - aka clean coal technology. The difference between what this professor did and current clean coal technology is that this professor's method is actually cost-effective.

[upflying]

Tesla only has one dealer in the SF bay Area.
Tesla is financed by taxpayer backed government loans.
Tesla looks eerily similar to bankrupt Fisker.
Tesla owner Elon Musk manipulates social media to keep stock prices high.
Tesla reports sold vehicles the same as ordered vehicles to inflate sales figures and profits.
Tesla appeals to early adopters and is affected by rapidly changing technology.
Does anyone know what a Tesla will be worth in 5 years and how that figures in operating cost? I am predicting rapid depreciation..
Coda is another electric car company that is near bankrupt. No one is buying tham.
http://www.codaautomotive.com/

[The Stig]

Originally Posted by upflying

Tesla only has one dealer in the SF bay Area.
Tesla is financed by taxpayer backed government loans.
Tesla looks eerily similar to bankrupt Fisker.
Tesla owner Elon Musk manipulates social media to keep stock prices high.
Tesla reports sold vehicles the same as ordered vehicles to inflate sales figures and profits.
Tesla appeals to early adopters and is affected by rapidly changing technology.
Does anyone know what a Tesla will be worth in 5 years and how that figures in operating cost? I am predicting rapid depreciation..
Coda is another electric car company that is near bankrupt. No one is buying tham.
http://www.codaautomotive.com/

No one is denying that Tesla, if it weren't for their Government subsidizing would have been bankrupt years ago.

Also, I don't really think Elon Musk needs to manipulate stocks to make money - considering his newest project SpaceX is the sole supplies shuttle for the international space station and all that.

[newmoon]

A few things wrong here. No 1. please tell me that you didn't or won't pay $50,000 for a SS, for a couple more thousand you could have a ZL1. No 2. everything I have heard about the Tesla cars is that they are a POS, regardless what the greenies say, the quality is not there.

[880]

Originally Posted by 2Muchmark

ARRRGHHHH

I ordered a 2SS/RS/1LE Camaro 6 weeks ago for $50k and am expecting to get it in about 4 weeks or so. Today my phone rang and it was a sales rep from Tesla Motors. Get this:

Financing a Camaro for 76 months will cost about $780.00 per month taxes in, plus about 2-3 fill ups per month for $293.81 per month. Total gas per year at the current prices will cost me $3525.68. total : $1073.81 per month.

An $80k + 15% HST Tesla Model S - $8,000 green tax credit from the Quebec Government. With 3.99% financing (A little high but ok) PLUS electricity ($0.08 of Electricity = $1.40 Per Litre of Gas Equivalent) means everything will cost me $1079.81 per month, ENERGY INCLUDED, Tax included.

Frustrating! For the same price I can race and beat almost anyone on the road without polluting at all.

Oh well - this will be my last gas car. Don't worry I'm still a fan of Camaro's and you can't compare the cars to each other 100%, but wow Tesla.... amazing job!

Now that I've probably upset a few people, go ahead : Let the 2Muchmark slamming begin.

Listen to the sales rep! They'll give you an unbiased calculation! And they won't leave out any other major details!

[Number 3]

76 months?????