[Wyzz Kydd]

As an economist is pretty straightforward. Good products don’t require subsidies to be successful other than in very specific circumstances, none of which apply here.

If EVs were competing on a level playing field and winning I still wouldn’t want one, but I wouldn’t object to their existence, but they’re not competing on a level playing field. The government has its thumb on the scale both by subsidizing them, AND by penalizing ICE cars through increasingly restrictive regulations thereby driving up prices.

It’s a scam being perpetrated on taxpayers.

Pretty much every argument in favor of EVs relies on things that don’t exist yet and may never exist. Abundance of rare earth materials for batteries, switching our grid to ‘eco friendly’ power production, acceptable driving ranges, fast charging, abundant charging stations, robust performance even at lower charges. It’s a long list of pie in the sky assumptions.

The worst part is all of us are paying for these pieces of crap whether we want to or not.

[genxer]

The worst part is the mfg's held back on making hardcore combustion cars.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

Every car can race until they deplete their fuel. As for that Grand National story…definitely calling bs on that.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

yeah...except that at the track the ICE car can fill up in two minutes and be ready to go. EVs can't do that....yet. So the story holds water just fine.

As for Martinjlm...he does not bs.

Appreciate the vote of confidence KMP.

Certainly not something I’d ever lie about. Nothing to gain. Comes down to understanding the strengths and limitations of your car. I worked at Buick at the time. In the engine factory that made the 3800 V6 engine, including the 3.8 Turbo. I understood the variance in performance between the 3.8 Turbo in ambient conditions and the 3.8 Turbo running in heat. I also knew that the stock tires on the GN were the weak point for launching the car. And lord knows I and everybody who cared knew that the Corvette would eat the GN for lunch on anything twisty.

When I was a kid, my older brother used to race for titles. I went with him one night when he raced, beat, and took home an early ‘70s Barracuda 383 6-pack. He was driving a Ford LTD 500. He told me going into the race that the ‘Cuda should have curb-stomped him, but he had been watching the guy and realized he didn’t know how to launch. Spinnin’ ain’t winnin’. So all he had to do was launch right and cross the finish before the ‘Cuda hooked and caught him. That’s exactly what happened. On the way home we lined up. I was driving the Ford. He roasted me. We switched cars and did it again. He roasted me.

Similar thing with me and my friend with the GN. I knew the limitations of his car better than he did and set up our races to take advantage of that.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

yeah...except that at the track the ICE car can fill up in two minutes and be ready to go. EVs can't do that....yet. So the story holds water just fine.

As for Martinjlm...he does not bs.

This is batshit crazy man. A Plaid can make 40-50 1/4 mile runs on one charge. I’ve never even seen an ICE car come close to running that many times in one night much less use an entire tank of gas. After spanking your ass three times he’ll have more than enough juice to make it back to wherever.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

This is batshit crazy man. A Plaid can make 40-50 1/4 mile runs on one charge. I’ve never even seen an ICE car come close to running that many times in one night much less use an entire tank of gas. After spanking your ass three times he’ll have more than enough juice to make it back to wherever.

EV’s lose acceleration as the battery charge declines snd the charge declines a lot faster when you’re racing it.

[mickss]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

As an economist is pretty straightforward. Good products don’t require subsidies to be successful other than in very specific circumstances, none of which apply here.

If EVs were competing on a level playing field and winning I still wouldn’t want one, but I wouldn’t object to their existence, but they’re not competing on a level playing field. The government has its thumb on the scale both by subsidizing them, AND by penalizing ICE cars through increasingly restrictive regulations thereby driving up prices.

It’s a scam being perpetrated on taxpayers.

Pretty much every argument in favor of EVs relies on things that don’t exist yet and may never exist. Abundance of rare earth materials for batteries, switching our grid to ‘eco friendly’ power production, acceptable driving ranges, fast charging, abundant charging stations, robust performance even at lower charges. It’s a long list of pie in the sky assumptions.

The worst part is all of us are paying for these pieces of crap whether we want to or not.

There are plenty of industries that receive subsidies from the Gov. And the top automotive recipient are General Motors (#2) and Ford Motor (#5) while Tesla Inc. comes in at (#21). Now if you want to use this list of subsidies for companies who deal in electric power that would in the future favor EV`s except at the present time there are more gas stations than EV fast charging stations. As for your assumption that ("If EVs were competing on a level playing field and winning I still wouldn’t want one, but I wouldn’t object to their existence, but they’re not competing on a level playing field. The government has its thumb on the scale both by subsidizing them")

You`re right it`s not a "level playing field", GM, Ford, Hyundai Motor, Toyota, Nissan, Volkswagen and Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc. all receive more subsidies combined than Tesla!

Here`s an idea, bring back the Stanley Steamer! That should end any arguments and make everyone happy.

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent-totals

[Wyzz Kydd]

Name one ICE vehicle that a consumer will receive a government subsidy for purchasing. You assume I’m referring to Tesla receiving subsidies, which is incorrect. All the manufacturers you mentioned are subsidized for pursuing EV manufacturing, which supports my argument.

This isn’t about which manufacturers receive subsidies, it’s about which products are being subsidized and which products are being regulated out of business.

Do you think Dodge wants to stop selling Hemis? That’s insane, they’re very popular and in the absence of regulations would be very profitable.

Why do you think the build rate on the Celestique is two per month? Because they’re incredibly expensive to manufacture and sourcing the battery materials is really tough.

Why do you think the price of gas is being deliberately increased? To make EVs more competitive.

There’s an old and very true maxim in economics. If you want more of something subsidize it, if you want less, tax it. That’s exactly what’s happening in the automotive industry. These guys dont want to discontinue ICE and go EV, they’re being forced to.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

This is batshit crazy man. A Plaid can make 40-50 1/4 mile runs on one charge. I’ve never even seen an ICE car come close to running that many times in one night much less use an entire tank of gas. After spanking your ass three times he’ll have more than enough juice to make it back to wherever.

I see what's happening here. You are thinking of a 1/4 mile track. When ariZona28 said "track day" I'm pretty sure meant an actual track...with turns and stuff.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Why do you think the price of gas is being deliberately increased? To make EVs more competitive.

Right... Big Oil is increasing prices on gas just so they can help increase use of vehicles that decrease the demand for their products......

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Why do you think the build rate on the Celestique is two per month? Because they’re incredibly expensive to manufacture and sourcing the battery materials is really tough.

It's 2 units a day.


Which is actually pretty impressive for a mostly hand-built vehicle being assembled outside a traditional production facility.

[Wyzz Kydd]

I didn’t say the producers were increasing prices, that’s being done by the government restricting output, which is what the current administration promised to do.

[Wyzz Kydd]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

It's 2 units a day.


Which is actually pretty impressive for a mostly hand-built vehicle being assembled outside a traditional production facility.

My bad, I should read more carefully. Having said that, less than a thousand a year isn’t a number that impresses me.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Wyzz Kydd

Name one ICE vehicle that a consumer will receive a government subsidy for purchasing. You assume I’m referring to Tesla receiving subsidies, which is incorrect. All the manufacturers you mentioned are subsidized for pursuing EV manufacturing, which supports my argument.

This isn’t about which manufacturers receive subsidies, it’s about which products are being subsidized and which products are being regulated out of business.

Do you think Dodge wants to stop selling Hemis? That’s insane, they’re very popular and in the absence of regulations would be very profitable.

Why do you think the build rate on the Celestique is two per month? Because they’re incredibly expensive to manufacture and sourcing the battery materials is really tough.

Why do you think the price of gas is being deliberately increased? To make EVs more competitive.

There’s an old and very true maxim in economics. If you want more of something subsidize it, if you want less, tax it. That’s exactly what’s happening in the automotive industry. These guys dont want to discontinue ICE and go EV, they’re being forced to.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

It's 2 units a day.


Which is actually pretty impressive for a mostly hand-built vehicle being assembled outside a traditional production facility.

The Celestiq is produced at 2 units a day because GM doesn’t want to build 3 units per day. It’s all about making the vehicle exclusive ala Rolls Royce / Maybach. Making it hand-crafted, customizable, and exclusive allows them to sell it at $300k and up per copy. And they must have hit their mark, because they are all spoken for for the next 18 months.

And as I’ve mentioned before, the rationale behind providing subsidies to EV makers is to incentivize them to produce zero emission vehicles to help protect air quality. Now incentives are shifting to EV buyers to motivate them to buy EVs, again, to protect air quality. At the end of the day, it costs less to reduce pollutants before they get into the air than to try to remove them once they are there. People can believe or not believe the arguments supporting climate change and air quality. The thing is, the major car companies DO believe it and are spending billions of dolllars to deal with it and the federal government (and practically every national government around the world) also believes it and is pushing for zero emissions transportation to help deal with it.

[90503]

Here's something for EV users to be aware of looking for somewhere to charge. Coming to a town near you!...lol...Isn't all this new infrastructure spending just great?...lol

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lo...2c0389867643d6



Los Angeles homeless commandeer streetside public EV charging stations
Story by Tori Richards • Yesterday 10:28 AM
368 Comments
Washington Examiner
Los Angeles homeless commandeer streetside public EV charging stations

Homeless Los Angeles residents have taken over electric vehicle charging stations throughout the city, setting up encampments with all the comforts of home, such as televisions, barbecues, and furniture.

© Provided by Washington Examiner
Videos uploaded Thursday on Twitter by @alexdatig gave a tour of various streets where charging stations overrun with homeless have no electric vehicle in sight.

“I’m just now driving down the street passing the charging station that is five minutes from my house on the outskirts of downtown LA. Would you be comfortable charging your $60,000 EV here?” tweeted Alexandra Datig, who produces commentary for various news outlets.

Another video showed gang graffiti on several charging stations.

“Taking a closer look at the graffiti, I wonder what gang affiliation you need to have to be able to charge your $60,000 EV here?” she tweeted.

But the problem dates back to the 1930s, when Skid Row was founded, and city leaders have found no solution since. The population continues to grow, with a 20,000 increase over the past five years.

The crisis has come to the point at which a federal judge intervened last year and ordered the city to house Skid Row’s 4,600 residents within six months. That order has since been overturned, and the matter is still being litigated.

Meanwhile, as California pushes its residents into green energy, it’s safe to say additional charging stations will be cropping up around Los Angeles as a magnet for the homeless. Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an order prohibiting the sale of new gas cars in 2035 while placing an increasing quota on manufacturers to sell electric cars.

CLICK HERE TO READ MORE FROM THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER