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Old 03-14-2014, 08:46 PM   #99
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Like what you drive, drive what you like.

Not the fastest, or quickest, or anywhere near most powerful.
It does not have to be. It just has to be cool. However it is fast!
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:07 PM   #100
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Aw next year is too soon. I need to pay off some more on my car and save to put some more down.

Hopefully the new Camaro will be accessory friendly as well. I think the customization of the Gen5 was a big selling point.
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Old 03-14-2014, 11:43 PM   #101
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I have to take this this way
The people that are talking about the 16 , don't know what they are talking about
The ones that do know , aren't talking , period .
Agree.

And I call shenanigans on the story. I'm sure it will be evolutionary, but I still call shenanigans that someone has seen it
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Old 03-15-2014, 08:24 AM   #102
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It will have to be evolutionary simply because it has to BE and LOOK LIKE a Camaro.

But it needs to be revolutionary in several areas at least compared to the current car.

1- Class leading interior materials. Current interior in 2010 was only trying to beat the 2008 Mustang interior. And it did. The Mustang refresh moved well ahead and GM played catch up with the dash, steering wheel, adding NAV, a height adjustable passenger seat. Flat out the interior pretty much sucks by 2014 standards. Just look at the new Tahoe/Suburban, Impala and Corvette. Any NG Camaro needs to put those in the weeds. The comments better read, "the 20XX Camaro interior rivals the Audi A5 for $15,000 less".

2 - Interior packaging. Frankly this is the current cars biggest weakness. Visibility is so poor that I never tried to parallel park one. Yes it can be done, but forward and side visibility are horrid and the rear is not much better than driving the Solstice Hard Top. The cowl is too high. The belt line is too high. And give us a trunk opening that isn't compromised by styling. The trunk is big enough but the opening is a small port hole.

3 - More refinement in the styling. Fine, be a Camaro, we all want it to still be a Camaro. But you can make it awesome without being "cartoonish" and "in your face". I know there will be a lot of disagreement on this point. And I sure don't want a Hyundai or even the smoothed out Mustang. But don't add a lot of clap trap to it. That extra "stuff" is what hurts the C7 from being truly awesome. The Camaro was awesome when it came out. Partly because we hadn't had one in almost 10 years. But for me now, it is too much of it's own self. Tone it down a notch. Doesn't need to go to 11

4 - DO NOT give us a Cadillac ATS Coupe with less stuff. And I don't mean styling. Any NG Camaro needs to have it's own value proposition. DO NOT give us a "if you want that feature or technology you need to buy the Cadillac?" Proposition. Having 3 brands is still killing GM. The Impala would be a much better car still if it weren't for the Lacrosse. And as much as you might like it, the TT 3.6L is only available with the XTS. Simply make the Camaro as good a car as you can in all trim levels.

5 - Don't #$%^&* up the powertrain. Give the Camaro the best stuff you have. Don't launch with a 6 speed. Booooo. 8 speed is your best and newest transmission. The Camaro should launch with the best you have to be a great drivers car for each model. This doesn't mean Brembos on an LT. But don't skimp on the goods.

6 - Target the $30,000 price point. It needs to be the most awesome way to spend $30,000 if you want a coupe. And at that price point the Camaro should "punch well above it's weight class". One of GM's biggest failures in the past was to design and content the base car for it's entry level price. Everyone remembers the Solstice/Sky. It was the most wonderful car to get a small American made roadster for UNDER $20,000. It was frankly a miracle at that price. But the Sky Redline I bought several years ago stickered for $36,000. Within a couple grand of an Audi TT convertible. At that price point, the build quality, top operation, interior quality and features were all substandard. So GM DO NOT design and content the car for the base/entry buyer. Design and content the car so that the buyer at the high end is asking why they would spend more money for the German or Asian brand when the Camaro offers the same awesomeness for so much less.

7 - Mustang is not your only competitor. PERIOD.

The hard part will be to balance all that and still satisfy the "American Muscle" crowd. They will get that with likely the LT1. And even if the car weighs more than an ATS, and it will by the way, that car would be pretty awesome. Put an LT1 in an ATS Coupe and you won't have a 3,400 pound car. Sorry.

Now this alllllll has to leave room for a very special car at the top end of the range. GM has two premium powertrain choices in the Camaro ABOVE the LS3. Not sure if that is possible in a NG Camaro, but we've already seen the SC version of the LT1 in the Z06. Set the car up so that you can now apply premium materials to get real weight out and have a car that has all the track capability one can imagine in a Pony Car. That somehow weighs what a base V6 weighs but has the best powertrain, brakes, tires and steering. If you did 1 through 7 above correctly, this car should make anyone considering an M4, an RS5, an AMG C63 think reallllly hard about why they shouldn't be buying a Camaro. Now that's a hard goal. Most Porsche guys would have never, ever, ever, never considered a Corvette. Just ask them. But the magazines are now making that choice. And that has to be the mission of the NG Z car in the Camaro lineup.
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:31 AM   #103
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great points Number 3. nothing else really needs to be said.
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:57 AM   #104
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Hopefully than can do something about the doors and rear quarters looking like there are different colors. They need to make the flair start in the door or in the rear quarter, not at the seam where they meet. No mater what color the car, they all look like they have had paint work.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:10 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
It will have to be evolutionary simply because it has to BE and LOOK LIKE a Camaro.

But it needs to be revolutionary in several areas at least compared to the current car.

1- Class leading interior materials. Current interior in 2010 was only trying to beat the 2008 Mustang interior. And it did. The Mustang refresh moved well ahead and GM played catch up with the dash, steering wheel, adding NAV, a height adjustable passenger seat. Flat out the interior pretty much sucks by 2014 standards. Just look at the new Tahoe/Suburban, Impala and Corvette. Any NG Camaro needs to put those in the weeds. The comments better read, "the 20XX Camaro interior rivals the Audi A5 for $15,000 less".

2 - Interior packaging. Frankly this is the current cars biggest weakness. Visibility is so poor that I never tried to parallel park one. Yes it can be done, but forward and side visibility are horrid and the rear is not much better than driving the Solstice Hard Top. The cowl is too high. The belt line is too high. And give us a trunk opening that isn't compromised by styling. The trunk is big enough but the opening is a small port hole.

3 - More refinement in the styling. Fine, be a Camaro, we all want it to still be a Camaro. But you can make it awesome without being "cartoonish" and "in your face". I know there will be a lot of disagreement on this point. And I sure don't want a Hyundai or even the smoothed out Mustang. But don't add a lot of clap trap to it. That extra "stuff" is what hurts the C7 from being truly awesome. The Camaro was awesome when it came out. Partly because we hadn't had one in almost 10 years. But for me now, it is too much of it's own self. Tone it down a notch. Doesn't need to go to 11

4 - DO NOT give us a Cadillac ATS Coupe with less stuff. And I don't mean styling. Any NG Camaro needs to have it's own value proposition. DO NOT give us a "if you want that feature or technology you need to buy the Cadillac?" Proposition. Having 3 brands is still killing GM. The Impala would be a much better car still if it weren't for the Lacrosse. And as much as you might like it, the TT 3.6L is only available with the XTS. Simply make the Camaro as good a car as you can in all trim levels.

5 - Don't #$%^&* up the powertrain. Give the Camaro the best stuff you have. Don't launch with a 6 speed. Booooo. 8 speed is your best and newest transmission. The Camaro should launch with the best you have to be a great drivers car for each model. This doesn't mean Brembos on an LT. But don't skimp on the goods.

6 - Target the $30,000 price point. It needs to be the most awesome way to spend $30,000 if you want a coupe. And at that price point the Camaro should "punch well above it's weight class". One of GM's biggest failures in the past was to design and content the base car for it's entry level price. Everyone remembers the Solstice/Sky. It was the most wonderful car to get a small American made roadster for UNDER $20,000. It was frankly a miracle at that price. But the Sky Redline I bought several years ago stickered for $36,000. Within a couple grand of an Audi TT convertible. At that price point, the build quality, top operation, interior quality and features were all substandard. So GM DO NOT design and content the car for the base/entry buyer. Design and content the car so that the buyer at the high end is asking why they would spend more money for the German or Asian brand when the Camaro offers the same awesomeness for so much less.

7 - Mustang is not your only competitor. PERIOD.

The hard part will be to balance all that and still satisfy the "American Muscle" crowd. They will get that with likely the LT1. And even if the car weighs more than an ATS, and it will by the way, that car would be pretty awesome. Put an LT1 in an ATS Coupe and you won't have a 3,400 pound car. Sorry.

Now this alllllll has to leave room for a very special car at the top end of the range. GM has two premium powertrain choices in the Camaro ABOVE the LS3. Not sure if that is possible in a NG Camaro, but we've already seen the SC version of the LT1 in the Z06. Set the car up so that you can now apply premium materials to get real weight out and have a car that has all the track capability one can imagine in a Pony Car. That somehow weighs what a base V6 weighs but has the best powertrain, brakes, tires and steering. If you did 1 through 7 above correctly, this car should make anyone considering an M4, an RS5, an AMG C63 think reallllly hard about why they shouldn't be buying a Camaro. Now that's a hard goal. Most Porsche guys would have never, ever, ever, never considered a Corvette. Just ask them. But the magazines are now making that choice. And that has to be the mission of the NG Z car in the Camaro lineup.
I agree with every bit of this; especially point #3. In the original concept thread I created last year I was putting in a lot of time and thought towards doing exactly what you outline in points #2 and #3. I wanted and still want a Camaro that's a great driver's car; not something that looks like a robot toy or a toy of any kind period. While I didn't do any interior designs I did put a lot of effort into improving driver visibility which is a big issue to me too. A lot of thought went into fender lines, roof lines and window shapes.

But for the most part people didn't seem to care; or at least those who commented didn't seem to. All they talked about were the looks and as I made modifications based on their feedback, to my surprise they didn't care that those modifications were compromising their experience as a driver. A surprising number seem to only care about appearance. Obviously appearance is important, but can't we have both? A great driver experience and a great appearance?

I think if GM were to do what you outline, and build a great Camaro without the gimmicky stuff; make it sleek, make it classy, make it elegant and give it the kind of looks that would enable it to sit next to a fighter jet and look like it belongs there... like it's one of them.... once people saw it and drove it, they'd want it. At that point it's competition wouldn't be a Mustang; it would be a Ferrari or Porsche.

With the new 3D printing technologies and new materials like Liquidmetal that can be used in 3D printing, GM can not only lead the sales pack but lead the American and world automotive scene and use those technologies to deliver a world-class Camaro. I completely agree with you Number 3; not only about the NG Camaro but your comments about the C7. It's almost a truly awesome looking car; if it weren't for the gimmicks it would have been. Still could be if they eliminate the gimmicks in future revisions. As it is it's looks are 90% of great which is good enough for robust sales, but I would love to see GM go that extra 10%.

Good post sir....good post.
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Old 03-15-2014, 11:33 AM   #106
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I still like this rendering doc. it is one of my favorites.
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Old 03-15-2014, 12:19 PM   #107
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I always enjoy reading your posts number 3...usually well thought out and insightful.

But...I have a few "buts" lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
It will have to be evolutionary simply because it has to BE and LOOK LIKE a Camaro.

But it needs to be revolutionary in several areas at least compared to the current car.

1- Class leading interior materials. Current interior in 2010 was only trying to beat the 2008 Mustang interior. And it did. The Mustang refresh moved well ahead and GM played catch up with the dash, steering wheel, adding NAV, a height adjustable passenger seat. Flat out the interior pretty much sucks by 2014 standards. Just look at the new Tahoe/Suburban, Impala and Corvette. Any NG Camaro needs to put those in the weeds. The comments better read, "the 20XX Camaro interior rivals the Audi A5 for $15,000 less".

I like the current Camaro interior actually because of its unique styling. That said....I'm ready to move on to something closer to the current crop of wonderful GM interiors. AGREE

2 - Interior packaging. Frankly this is the current cars biggest weakness. Visibility is so poor that I never tried to parallel park one. Yes it can be done, but forward and side visibility are horrid and the rear is not much better than driving the Solstice Hard Top. The cowl is too high. The belt line is too high. And give us a trunk opening that isn't compromised by styling. The trunk is big enough but the opening is a small port hole.

I easily see your point here, but I disagree. It is a big deal....but to me I could care less honestly. I'll give up some practicality in the name of styling every time, and I couldn't give two rats behinds about having a big trunk opening. The style captured my soul on the current design, and the next design should do the same.

3 - More refinement in the styling. Fine, be a Camaro, we all want it to still be a Camaro. But you can make it awesome without being "cartoonish" and "in your face". I know there will be a lot of disagreement on this point. And I sure don't want a Hyundai or even the smoothed out Mustang. But don't add a lot of clap trap to it. That extra "stuff" is what hurts the C7 from being truly awesome. The Camaro was awesome when it came out. Partly because we hadn't had one in almost 10 years. But for me now, it is too much of it's own self. Tone it down a notch. Doesn't need to go to 11

Some call it cartoonish. I call it having the balls to make a bold, stand out design that will go down in Camaro history as one of the better looking generations. Do I think the next gen needs to go even bigger...and more bold....more "transformer" as the guy that responded to my prior post said....NO I don't. Just don't go soft on us. Keep a bold design, Keep it unique. The 5th gen kicked butt in sales because GM went big and it paid off. Besides looks...why in the heck should the Camaro have outsold the quicker, lighter Mustang??

4 - DO NOT give us a Cadillac ATS Coupe with less stuff. And I don't mean styling. Any NG Camaro needs to have it's own value proposition. DO NOT give us a "if you want that feature or technology you need to buy the Cadillac?" Proposition. Having 3 brands is still killing GM. The Impala would be a much better car still if it weren't for the Lacrosse. And as much as you might like it, the TT 3.6L is only available with the XTS. Simply make the Camaro as good a car as you can in all trim levels.

Sounds good to me

5 - Don't #$%^&* up the powertrain. Give the Camaro the best stuff you have. Don't launch with a 6 speed. Booooo. 8 speed is your best and newest transmission. The Camaro should launch with the best you have to be a great drivers car for each model. This doesn't mean Brembos on an LT. But don't skimp on the goods.

Agree. I think the 5th gen got all the good stuff as far as I can recall. So should the 6th gen.

6 - Target the $30,000 price point. It needs to be the most awesome way to spend $30,000 if you want a coupe. And at that price point the Camaro should "punch well above it's weight class". One of GM's biggest failures in the past was to design and content the base car for it's entry level price. Everyone remembers the Solstice/Sky. It was the most wonderful car to get a small American made roadster for UNDER $20,000. It was frankly a miracle at that price. But the Sky Redline I bought several years ago stickered for $36,000. Within a couple grand of an Audi TT convertible. At that price point, the build quality, top operation, interior quality and features were all substandard. So GM DO NOT design and content the car for the base/entry buyer. Design and content the car so that the buyer at the high end is asking why they would spend more money for the German or Asian brand when the Camaro offers the same awesomeness for so much less.

7 - Mustang is not your only competitor. PERIOD.

The hard part will be to balance all that and still satisfy the "American Muscle" crowd. They will get that with likely the LT1. And even if the car weighs more than an ATS, and it will by the way, that car would be pretty awesome. Put an LT1 in an ATS Coupe and you won't have a 3,400 pound car. Sorry.

No you don't, but you have a car that still can very possibly weigh in the 3,550 3,650 lb range give or take some....and that's all I'm really hoping for, as that is a very nice improvement for the current SS.

Now this alllllll has to leave room for a very special car at the top end of the range. GM has two premium powertrain choices in the Camaro ABOVE the LS3. Not sure if that is possible in a NG Camaro, but we've already seen the SC version of the LT1 in the Z06. Set the car up so that you can now apply premium materials to get real weight out and have a car that has all the track capability one can imagine in a Pony Car. That somehow weighs what a base V6 weighs but has the best powertrain, brakes, tires and steering. If you did 1 through 7 above correctly, this car should make anyone considering an M4, an RS5, an AMG C63 think reallllly hard about why they shouldn't be buying a Camaro. Now that's a hard goal. Most Porsche guys would have never, ever, ever, never considered a Corvette. Just ask them. But the magazines are now making that choice. And that has to be the mission of the NG Z car in the Camaro lineup.
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Old 03-15-2014, 12:27 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edco View Post
Quote: " Ford recently released some early sketches of the 2015 Mustang before the final form came to be, and I have to admit it looks pretty killer compared
to what we got in the end."

I think the sketches make the opposite point. The '15 Mustang is true to every design facet of the sketches. I think Ford hit the right note. The "killer theme"
in car design can wear thin. This new Mustang will look fine on SCCA tracks in performance trims. It is also a design that is not out of place at a Country Club,
a theater drive way, a University campus, or any civil venue. Not everyone is a transformer hardon. Never saw the movie, did see it make the top ten worst movies list.

Ford has 50 years of enviable pony program experience and they have done it again.
Comparing the pics: they eyepoint in the drawing is on the ground-looking straight in the tail pipe.
The eyepoint in the pic is up at roof height. Move it to the ground, you get the wider lower aspect of the sketch.
I don't want anyone to think I hate the 15' Mustang design. Its an attractive design, and I'm sure there will plenty of ways to make the care look even more aggressive. I like the proportions of it very much. I just feel like it could have been a bit more...something. I feel like Ford played it safe and in the process the car lost a little of its soul. Of course, that's just my own opinion. I'm sure it will sell well and should be a hoot to drive.
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Old 03-15-2014, 12:44 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
I always enjoy reading your posts number 3...usually well thought out and insightful.

But...I have a few "buts" lol
I would say I like your buts, but that could be badly misinterpreted. Wait? What?

LOL

Styling will be the key. I agree, it needs to make a statement. It needs to be a Camaro from the first look. But GM has typically taken the styling trumps function too many times. The Cadillac CTS Coupe is a bold statement but such a packaging joke it has nearly zero practicality other than transporting a drive and a passenger. In fact the ATS is ripe with these packaging trade offs. I think you can be bold AND correct some of these flaws. You can have both it's just HARD WORK. And I hope GM did that. My guess is likely not out of fear. This Gen 5 may be the biggest enemy for Gen 6 in that GM will simply be too afraid to veer from the successful formula.
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Old 03-15-2014, 01:09 PM   #110
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Why all the hate for the interior of the 5th gen? I love the fact that it doesn't look like any other car. I am 6' and I can see why taller people want more head room but I love the look and the windshield doesn't bother me at all. I think all Camaros should have a back up camera. If it is possible to have more visibility then great but GM do not lose the aggressiveness of your design. Maybe better materials would be nice but every time I see a list of what people want in the 6 gen it usually brings up cost and weight. Keep it simple, clean, a little aggressive and not cartoonish and it will be fine.

I want a 350 hp V6 6 or 7speed manual with reduced weight and good looks and the basics that come with the LS at no more then 25k and let everything else be optional for those who want Cadillac levels of comfort.

Oh and a 1le package available for the V6......
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Old 03-15-2014, 02:24 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
I agree with every bit of this; especially point #3. In the original concept thread I created last year I was putting in a lot of time and thought towards doing exactly what you outline in points #2 and #3. I wanted and still want a Camaro that's a great driver's car; not something that looks like a robot toy or a toy of any kind period. While I didn't do any interior designs I did put a lot of effort into improving driver visibility which is a big issue to me too. A lot of thought went into fender lines, roof lines and window shapes.

But for the most part people didn't seem to care; or at least those who commented didn't seem to. All they talked about were the looks and as I made modifications based on their feedback, to my surprise they didn't care that those modifications were compromising their experience as a driver. A surprising number seem to only care about appearance. Obviously appearance is important, but can't we have both? A great driver experience and a great appearance?

I think if GM were to do what you outline, and build a great Camaro without the gimmicky stuff; make it sleek, make it classy, make it elegant and give it the kind of looks that would enable it to sit next to a fighter jet and look like it belongs there... like it's one of them.... once people saw it and drove it, they'd want it. At that point it's competition wouldn't be a Mustang; it would be a Ferrari or Porsche.

With the new 3D printing technologies and new materials like Liquidmetal that can be used in 3D printing, GM can not only lead the sales pack but lead the American and world automotive scene and use those technologies to deliver a world-class Camaro. I completely agree with you Number 3; not only about the NG Camaro but your comments about the C7. It's almost a truly awesome looking car; if it weren't for the gimmicks it would have been. Still could be if they eliminate the gimmicks in future revisions. As it is it's looks are 90% of great which is good enough for robust sales, but I would love to see GM go that extra 10%.

Good post sir....good post.
Doc, I know you mean well and maybe I'm jaded because I read more on this topic than others(?), but you keep going on and on about gimmicky anime cartoon toy robot looking concepts... I think you've made your point. However, it's not an entirely relevant one. As some others have pointed out in the past, you don't even have to look further than the original 5th gen concept drawings to see that a cartoonish imagining can turn into a real and usable car. Obviously it's not identical to that first giant-wheeled flat-roofed completely unrealistic sketch, but it maintains that exact flavor that makes it so exciting in real life. While it has not the best of driver visibility, hundreds of thousands of drivers manage to pilot it around every single day without banging against every possible obstacle in its path. It's not that bad... and it came from a fully and completely unrealistic cartoon.
If you do need to look further than that, Google is full of images of manufacturer concepts that are just as over the top, yet somehow get built into amazing looking usable cars with the full essence of what they were conceived to be.
My point is that your bottom-up approach isn't the only one that works. Please understand that. Furthermore, there are things on some of your concepts that aren't realistic, legal, or reasonable either.

Secondly... whether the styling is full of gimmicks, trends, ridiculously outlandish features, or whether it has flowing curves that precisely model a fighter-jet without any other distractions... STYLING IS 100% OPINION. Let me repeat that. STYLING IS 100% OPINION. There is no right or wrong... simple as that.
I love everything about the C7, gimmicks and all, and I extra love the extra gimmicky C7 Z06. I love the new crop of sharply angled Lamborghinis, I love how LED lighting is used for extra character on a lot of cars (especially the Audi's and the Corvette), I love a lot of things that were unheard of 10 years ago, much less 30 or more. I also love a lot of 80's cars, especially the later third gens (specifically the 85-90's with GFX). Some will say I'm insane, but in my mind, a clean, debadged and mildly lowered IROC-Z has timeless styling. From a certain angle especially, it just flows from beginning to end so smoothly that it belies its boxy nature and has a spirit that says "let's go have some fun!" that speaks directly into my soul. Similarly but differently, I love the C5 Corvette and to me it's also timeless (not counting the notchbacks), pop-up headlights and all (actually, that's part of why). It's low front end flows into its high rear haunches with clean, sculpted curves that look to slip through the air rather than buldoze it aside, all while it hugs the ground as to say "C'mon, let's eat that corner alive... faster faster faster!"

What I don't love... among many other things... the Ferrari 308. It just looks old and bland to me. No agressiveness, nothing that screams to me "let's go!". It's rocked back on its heels with its nose stuck up in the air. I don't like imports with outlandish body kits that don't flow with any original lines on the car. I don't love, believe it or not, the '69 Camaro either... The cleaner leaner '67 looks much better to me.
And Doc, I hate to say it, I really do, but I don't love your concepts either, despite some of my ideas being used on the original one in its final form. You say it looks fighter-jet smooth, I say that it looks a bit old and a bit bland (regardless of whether or not it should be called Camaro). I don't think it's bad, it just doesn't quite do it for me.
So who is right, you or me? No one, of course. It's 100% opinion, and thank goodness people have different ones because it would suck if all cars looked identical for all of eternity. Let people like what they like.

Now... form follows function. That's a perfectly fine concept, but obviously you know that there has to be a compromise between the two for any realistic enthusiast car. Where you're getting hung up is on how much to compromise. That is something people are allowed to disagree upon (assume staying within laws and regulations), so try not to get too defensive when people would rather have a car that looks like a toy robot than one that is a little easier to see out of. Either is fine.

When you say "...but can't we have both? A great driver experience and a great appearance?"... Sure we can! but "great" is based solely on opinion, so your great is not the same as all others' great. Again, let people like what they like. By all means, please keep sharing your ideas and asking for honest inputs, I think it's awesome when people get together and exercise their mind a bit on a topic that I love so much (I am all for people having mature, constructive inputs).
Just please, don't get bent out of shape when someone thinks a different approach to design is a better way to go or someone disagrees with your idea of "great". It's all good.
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Old 03-15-2014, 03:32 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edco View Post
Quote: " Ford recently released some early sketches of the 2015 Mustang before the final form came to be, and I have to admit it looks pretty killer compared
to what we got in the end."

I think the sketches make the opposite point. The '15 Mustang is true to every design facet of the sketches. I think Ford hit the right note. The "killer theme"
in car design can wear thin. This new Mustang will look fine on SCCA tracks in performance trims. It is also a design that is not out of place at a Country Club,
a theater drive way, a University campus, or any civil venue. Not everyone is a transformer hardon. Never saw the movie, did see it make the top ten worst movies list.

Ford has 50 years of enviable pony program experience and they have done it again.
Comparing the pics: they eyepoint in the drawing is on the ground-looking straight in the tail pipe.
The eyepoint in the pic is up at roof height. Move it to the ground, you get the wider lower aspect of the sketch.
They neutered it. Ouch!
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