[Stig eh]

Thanks you are a wealth of information that is honest and that you are willing to share is a beautiful must for us all thanks. stig. eh.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In the auto industry you have PLATFORMS and you have PROGRAMS. Typically an automaker tries to get at least 2 PROGRAMS per PLATFORM. PROGRAMS usually continue for 3 - 4 years until they are refreshed with a new PROGRAM.

Alpha Camaro (not to be confused with Alpha ATS or Alpha CTS) is a PLATFORM. 2016 - 2018 Camaro is a PROGRAM. 2019 - whenever Camaro is a PROGRAM, and will be the 2nd PROGRAM on the Alpha Camaro PLATFORM. Expect it to last at least 3 or 4 years.

During that time, General Motors will make decisions on whether Alpha (including Camaro, ATS and CTS) will undergo change, be replaced by another architecture, continue on as is, or drop. Anyone telling you they know which path GM will take beyond the 3-4 year run of the 2019 refresh of Alpha Camaro is blowing smoke, because none of that will have been decided at this point.

So basically, from the launch of the 2019 refresh, you have 3 - 4 years of Camaro being pretty much what it is, with some model year tweaks.

Hope that helps answer your question.

[Stig eh]

Originally Posted by camaro5

With front engine Corvette production ending in 2021, you can bet there will be a 2022 7th gen Camaro.

what is your definitive proof of that most ridiculous statement

stig eh.

[Martinjlm]

Number 3, you are very high on the list of members I would love to sit down and have a beer or coffee with, if for no other reason than to figure out who you know. Your analysis and reasoning here is pretty solid. I am not saying how much if any is true, but you have a very solid knowledge base, and the direction of your reasoning is on point.

Originally Posted by Number 3

More likely it's 3 years (16, 17 and 18) on the first introduction and then 3 more (19, 20 and 21) for the refresh.

If there isn't at least another refresh in 22 (I would expect a major) something really bad in happening in the industry.

Keep in mind the 2nd Generation Alpha (A2xx) prototypes have now been spotted in the wild, which starts the 80 week clock (or so, the Camaro was a bit quicker) to launch.

Cadillac President has already said the ATS goes to something smaller and the CTS will now be a proper E Class, 5 Series competitor, meaning it won't try to be the bigger car made from a smaller architecture. It's currently handicapped and hopefully the A2xx addresses these. Now what the ATS comes from, who knows. There was a 2 month study before the ATS was a go program to take it off a modified Delta architecture. So it's not clear what the ATS comes off of. It may simply be off the Bolt and give Cadillac a true EV. It probably wouldn't sell worse as bad as ATS sales are.

As good as the A1xx architecture is, every car built off of it is selling like crap and the Camaro is outselling ATS and CTS combined...........times 2. Alpha has not been profitable for GM.

I think someone posted a 2019 outlook and it only had an ATS Coupe in the plan. Not sure that's true or will happen but would indicate GM taking a different direction with the ATS Sedan.

And the industry is in the earliest stages of a huge change in propulsion and vehicle operation. If there isn't money to be made in a Gen7 Camaro, there won't be one. GM is only under one obligation..........make money. And if that happens to be in autonomous EVs then that's where the money will get spent.

Doesn't mean the Camaro wouldn't continue, it would just end significant investment leaving the car fundamentally as is even longer.

But my hopeful prediction would be 2022 as things are going.

But if we look at the Gen5, it had two years of refreshes. 2013 for the Interior and 2014 for the exterior. Typically those would be done in one year. So the 14 exterior refresh lasted only two model years. So maybe 2021 off of A2xx.

[Battlezone580]

Thankfully there's a team at GM who decides all of these factors, and we can sit back and relax.

The 6th Gen is great, if a 7th Gen does come out I'm sure it will be even better.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Number 3, you are very high on the list of members I would love to sit down and have a beer or coffee with, if for no other reason than to figure out who you know. Your analysis and reasoning here is pretty solid. I am not saying how much if any is true, but you have a very solid knowledge base, and the direction of your reasoning is on point.

My wife and I we're both at GM for over 25 years. We both worked on the C5 and C6 Corvettes, me in engineering while she was Marketing Manager.

We both consider Fbodfather a good friend and my wife worked with Scott for many years.

A few years removed now but I worked on every program in the AVDC until I left back n '11. But I do remember going to the studio and seeing a 7/8ths scale Gen5, the first efforts at what is now the Gen6.

I love Camaro5 and 6 simply for the comeradery and good discussion.........unless you suggest the Gen6 has poor visibility. Then all bets are off. LOL

Oh and then there is Shno's House of Z over at Camaro5

[Martinjlm]

Explains a lot. I wonder if I know one or both of you. I was Director of Powertrain Planning when Dave Hill was doing C5 and I was Director of Vehicle Tech Integration when Tom Wallace was doing C6. Spent time presenting powertrain options to Dave's team and tech options to Tom's team.

Originally Posted by Number 3

My wife and I we're both at GM for over 25 years. We both worked on the C5 and C6 Corvettes, me in engineering while she was Marketing Manager.

We both consider Fbodfather a good friend and my wife worked with Scott for many years.

A few years removed now but I worked on every program in the AVDC until I left back n '11. But I do remember going to the studio and seeing a 7/8ths scale Gen5, the first efforts at what is now the Gen6.

I love Camaro5 and 6 simply for the comeradery and good discussion.........unless you suggest the Gen6 has poor visibility. Then all bets are off. LOL

Oh and then there is Shno's House of Z over at Camaro5

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by Stig eh

what is your definitive proof of that most ridiculous statement

stig eh.

Get real, this is speculation, educated speculation.

“2016-2024 North American Engine Forecast”

Corvettes’ Projected Future Motor Needs:

A) The 6.2L, Y1 front-engine platform, is projected to use 14,000 motors for 2019, declining significantly for 2020 to 9,000;

and even more for 2021 with just 3,000 engines that year —

and no more front-engined Corvettes are listed after 2021.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...gh-2021-a.html

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by camaro5

Get real, this is speculation, educated speculation.

......Quote:
“2016-2024 North American Engine Forecast”

Corvettes’ Projected Future Motor Needs:

A) The 6.2L, Y1 front-engine platform, is projected to use 14,000 motors for 2019, declining significantly for 2020 to 9,000;

and even more for 2021 with just 3,000 engines that year —

and no more front-engined Corvettes are listed after 2021.

....

Interesting. There are three major sources of powertrain forecast data, two of which I place a lot of trust in. Both of the ones I trust have some inaccuracies when it comes to C8 Corvette engines. I'll just leave it at that. The original post that was quoted in the link was taken down. I'm thinking someone at the info source saw it and required it be taken down. This is information that has to be purchased and trust me, it is NOT cheap, so they are protecting their product. That makes me think that it did originate from a credible source. But I also know that the two most credible sources have some important things wrong.

I have not looked at the third credible source, but I am also aware that they buy their base data from one of the other two sources and then modify it to match their own assumptions, so this could have come from any of the three.

[Number 3]

Knowing the plan is the key and those that know it aren't sharing it. So bootlegged documents that pop up now and again are always suspect. You need to know the source of the document and the age of the document (can change) and the purpose of the document, which could very well be to throw the public off (doubt that though but it would be funny)

The last go around for the mid engine (pre bankruptcy) it was intended to replace, not supplement the front engine car.

Pricing will be the deal. GM will not sell 40,000 $150,000 plus mid engine Corvettes. The new Acura NSX (base price $156,000) has sold less than a 1,000 units in it's two model years. For $150,000 I think you can get a 911 GT3. And that's the battle GM has had for years. Porsche-files do not consider Chevrolet Corvettes, let alone Camaros, to be in their league regardless of the performance.

We also have no clue what else GM may or may not be doing engine wise. A document that shows reductions in 6.2L engines can simply mean there is something to replace it that it not reflected in the document.

We simply can't know.

But it's also half of the internet for auto sites like Camaro5/6 and that's speculation.

So we have two inter related questions. Where is the Corvette going price wise and is GM really trying to let the Camaro fill in the bottom of the pricing?

If GM intends to keep the Corvette affordable then there is a ceiling on the Camaro. If GM takes the base Corvette up North of $75,000 and has extreme performance even in a base model, then that opens some more space for the Camaro. If they don't then it will probably look a lot more like today with some serious overlap. But the top performance car will always be the Corvette. As much as everyone loves it that they now share the top engine (for a little while anyway), GM will not be able to permit a $100,000 plus super car that can get out run by a 2+2 coupe for $70,000 from the same brand.

We can only guess for now.

An even bigger question is simply with the teaser for the GT500, will GM counter? Do they even need to with the ZL1 coming? And it has been pretty well known Ford had this coming so GM has actually had time to decide that. And if so, that will be an $80,000 Camaro or more. Almost the price of a 911.

All fun and games discussing things we can't know.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Knowing the plan is the key and those that know it aren't sharing it. So bootlegged documents that pop up now and again are always suspect. You need to know the source of the document and the age of the document (can change) and the purpose of the document, which could very well be to throw the public off (doubt that though but it would be funny)

The last go around for the mid engine (pre bankruptcy) it was intended to replace, not supplement the front engine car.

Pricing will be the deal. GM will not sell 40,000 $150,000 plus mid engine Corvettes. The new Acura NSX (base price $156,000) has sold less than a 1,000 units in it's two model years. For $150,000 I think you can get a 911 GT3. And that's the battle GM has had for years. Porsche-files do not consider Chevrolet Corvettes, let alone Camaros, to be in their league regardless of the performance.

We also have no clue what else GM may or may not be doing engine wise. A document that shows reductions in 6.2L engines can simply mean there is something to replace it that it not reflected in the document.

We simply can't know.

But it's also half of the internet for auto sites like Camaro5/6 and that's speculation.

So we have two inter related questions. Where is the Corvette going price wise and is GM really trying to let the Camaro fill in the bottom of the pricing?

If GM intends to keep the Corvette affordable then there is a ceiling on the Camaro. If GM takes the base Corvette up North of $75,000 and has extreme performance even in a base model, then that opens some more space for the Camaro. If they don't then it will probably look a lot more like today with some serious overlap. But the top performance car will always be the Corvette. As much as everyone loves it that they now share the top engine (for a little while anyway), GM will not be able to permit a $100,000 plus super car that can get out run by a 2+2 coupe for $70,000 from the same brand.

We can only guess for now.

An even bigger question is simply with the teaser for the GT500, will GM counter? Do they even need to with the ZL1 coming? And it has been pretty well known Ford had this coming so GM has actually had time to decide that. And if so, that will be an $80,000 Camaro or more. Almost the price of a 911.

All fun and games discussing things we can't know.

Good analysis. It's all a game of collecting dots and putting them together in likely scenarios. I live for that.

The part in RED.... Did you mean ZR1? If so, that's pretty much where I am. The GT500 exists because Ford has no direct competitor to Corvette, so they stretch the Mustang to swim in Corvette waters at the top end. That has never gotten a "Camaro-based" response from GM, just a Corvette "stay the course" approach. Camaro is more focused on GT350 / 350R and the ZL1 does a great job of handling that. If a shot hits GT500, cool....if not, no worries, because GT500 will be priced closer to ZR1 than ZL1.

And to your earlier point....yes GM knew about GT500 at least two years ago. I included it in several of my presentations when I still worked there.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Number 3

For $150,000 I think you can get a 911 GT3. And that's the battle GM has had for years. Porsche-files do not consider Chevrolet Corvettes, let alone Camaros, to be in their league regardless of the performance.

This reminded me of a fun (and funny) incident on a track day at M1 Concourse. The guy with the yellow Grand Sport is a friend of mine and has a garage at M1, so he invited the rest of us out for a track day. The last run of the day was for garage owners only, but they could take a passenger if they wanted. I rode shotgun. He mercilessly reeled in a GT3 until the GT3 had no choice but to signal him to pass. He chased it down and out-handled it around the curves, even though he had about 200 lbs of dead weight (me) along for the ride.

For what it's worth, I was the slowest on the track of our group of four (I nicknamed us the Small Block Mafia). The Grand Sport was the fastest. The ZL1 and the C6 (not even remotely stock) were pretty much neck and neck.

[motorhead]

Great thread. Ive enjoyed reading these two fellows that worked at GM posts. Interesting to get a glimpse of the inside.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Good analysis. It's all a game of collecting dots and putting them together in likely scenarios. I live for that.

The part in RED.... Did you mean ZR1? If so, that's pretty much where I am. The GT500 exists because Ford has no direct competitor to Corvette, so they stretch the Mustang to swim in Corvette waters at the top end. That has never gotten a "Camaro-based" response from GM, just a Corvette "stay the course" approach. Camaro is more focused on GT350 / 350R and the ZL1 does a great job of handling that. If a shot hits GT500, cool....if not, no worries, because GT500 will be priced closer to ZR1 than ZL1.

And to your earlier point....yes GM knew about GT500 at least two years ago. I included it in several of my presentations when I still worked there.

Thanks for the correction. I did mean R

[DiGiam]

I would say they won't produce the 6th gen for much longer if they can't get the damn issues figured out. The A8 transmission is trash at anything but wide open throttle shifting, the manual transmission has so much toque management built in that you can't even launch the car, rear end groan, countless electrical issues, and the fact that GM has done Zero to address these problems. If I was in the market, there is NO way I'd buy another camaro right now.