[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

You couldn't be more wrong. Google it. I would take the time to put up links, but from your post I have a feeling you'd probably say it was just "Fake news."

But for anybody reading Spaceme1117's post who cares about facts it's easy to find the truth. You'll find out people who push that narrative, and to a lesser extent anti-EV zealots, are full of it.

He's not the only one reading the forums. Please put up those links for us.

[Evergreen6]

If folks actually cared to learn about the situation in Texas fully, I'd also assume they are capable of doing their own fact-finding on the matter. There are a lot of cold climates in the US with high percentages of wind/solar, places which do not share Texas' inability to keep the grid running. Interesting, isn't it?

[Evergreen6]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Yea well, everything else we moved to also got chopped, right down to the Impala. Very unlikely 5 models, when you include the Camaro, evaporated due to lack of demand in such a short period of time. This is even further supported by my in laws with the dealership telling me how many complaints they've had about models that were axed. They had people buying plenty of Impalas and LaCrosses in 2020 that bought because they were being cancelled.

The whole country decided they only wanted SUV's and now they've decided they only want EV SUV's? LOL! I dont think so.

We'll be buying a foreign 4 door sedan in about 2 years. The American market has abandoned people like me. If I ever let go of the ZLE, it will most likely be replaced by a BMW M class. I doubt it though as this was pretty much my dream car.

No, really, the Impala was pretty terrible for GM. With each tweak they had hoped it would be a competitor to the Accord, even as far back as 1990 when the Lumina sedan was born. In 2018, GM was only selling about 56k Impalas per year while the Accord sold 291k units. The picture was a little rosier before GM went bankrupt in the late oughts, but not much. In 2009 they sold 165k Impalas while Honda managed to sell 290k Accords. The Impala/Lumina/W-Car always paced the competition by a long shot. Its winningest feature was a value proposition, and a name that managed to inspire some sense of nostalgia with an older demographic.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

No, really, the Impala was pretty terrible for GM. With each tweak they had hoped it would be a competitor to the Accord, even as far back as 1990 when the Lumina sedan was born. In 2018, GM was only selling about 56k Impalas per year while the Accord sold 291k units. The picture was a little rosier before GM went bankrupt in the late oughts, but not much. In 2009 they sold 165k Impalas while Honda managed to sell 290k Accords. The Impala/Lumina/W-Car always paced the competition by a long shot. Its winningest feature was a value proposition, and a name that managed to inspire some sense of nostalgia with an older demographic.

They announced the cancelling of the Impala in 2018 and tapered production in anticipation of transitioning the plant to EV. No doubt internally, the decision was actually made much earlier.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Evergreen6

No, really, the Impala was pretty terrible for GM. With each tweak they had hoped it would be a competitor to the Accord, even as far back as 1990 when the Lumina sedan was born. In 2018, GM was only selling about 56k Impalas per year while the Accord sold 291k units. The picture was a little rosier before GM went bankrupt in the late oughts, but not much. In 2009 they sold 165k Impalas while Honda managed to sell 290k Accords. The Impala/Lumina/W-Car always paced the competition by a long shot. Its winningest feature was a value proposition, and a name that managed to inspire some sense of nostalgia with an older demographic.

The W-Body Impala did the damage to the nameplate even when they slapped the LS4 into it to make it "exciting".

But the Epsilon II based Impala was a good vehicle, but the damage was done and GM lost that segment of the market. Once it declined further with the preference for crossovers and SUV's and declined to that 56K a year volume, Impala's fate was sealed.

The vast improvement the last Impala was came too late. Clinging to the W-Body for so long and the trash that product was did it in.

[The Maverick]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

So the hiring of Waggoner, who oversaw the death of Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Saturn plus losing the sales lead to Toyota was what? A diversity hire for morons?

And that doesn't rebut his claim either. Not that I was taking a position either way, as you seem to infer, I was just noting that Martin's first response missed the mark by a wide margin... which allowed him to come back with something a little more on point.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

All of these American corporations were strong armed by the government to make products approved by the government. Heck, even the decisions to eliminate brands was mandated by the government. No, there wasnt a memo from Obama saying "you have to kill Pontiac" for taking a bailout but it was coerced, just like the mandates to build EV's are. There's a reason why corporations are losing billions investing in EV's and it isnt because they love the earth!

At any rate, all of this is based on the false premise that CO2 is a pollutant. Its amazing how many people have bought into this absurdity.

You are right about the brands. The government set reduction of brands as a condition of the loans. That’s understandable. They suggested some brands and GM countered with different brands and the Automotive Task Force was smart enough to realize we knew what we were talking about.

On the other hand, I am not aware of any American companies that are strong armed by the government to make specific products unless those products relate to national security.

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

As much as people may have hated their favorite brand was the one that got chopped, GM absolutely needed to shed brands.

Them going down to 4 brands was one of the best things GM did.

The government officials wanted to axe GMC too, but then they saw the books and the printing press GMC is.

Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, and Hummer had nothing to justify their continued existence. Before you mention, " What about Buick!?!?!" China is why Buick survived.

It's funny though people constantly think GM went full EV just because of this administration. You do know GM announced going full EV in 2017 right?

Spot on. The Automotive Task Force recommended dropping Buick and GMC. We were able to show through analysis that Buick was going to exist in China no matter what we did in the US and that the overlap between Buick and Cadillac was much smaller than the overlap between Pontiac and Chevrolet. We also showed that GMC had at the time one of the best new customer growth stats in the industry and that a large percentage of GMC truck buyers did not consider Chevrolet as a second purchase option.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

By your estimation, how many decades to convert to say, 20% remaining ICE vehicles on the road?

I’m looking at vehicles in operation data forecast out to 2045. Even at current EV growth rates in 2045, ICE vehicles will be more than 50% of the vehicles on the road. That’s why I keep saying most of us will be long dead by the time ICE breathes its last breath.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You are right about the brands. The government set reduction of brands as a condition of the loans. That’s understandable. They suggested some brands and GM countered with different brands and the Automotive Task Force was smart enough to realize we knew what we were talking about.

On the other hand, I am not aware of any American companies that are strong armed by the government to make specific products unless those products relate to national security.


Spot on. The Automotive Task Force recommended dropping Buick and GMC. We were able to show through analysis that Buick was going to exist in China no matter what we did in the US and that the overlap between Buick and Cadillac was much smaller than the overlap between Pontiac and Chevrolet. We also showed that GMC had at the time one of the best new customer growth stats in the industry and that a large percentage of GMC truck buyers did not consider Chevrolet as a second purchase option.

But do you even have an unhinged youtube rant video?

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Only unique models I’m recalling is the G8 and Solstice( Chevy didn’t have a version, but did have the Saturn Sky). Which the G8( GXP) became the Chevy SS later.

No arguing here in what GMC is, but unlike Pontiac also being rebadged Chevy’s, GMC made money hence why it survived.

I know the G8 became the SS eventually, but like the 6th gen, I don't think GM made much an effort telling anyone about it. I saw one at a dealership once and had to take a couple of double takes to realize what I was looking at. It is possible to take the sleeper look too far.

The Vibe was also a unique (and very successful) Pontiac model. I owned two of them and while I wasn't crazy about the Toyota/Pontiac hybrid aspect, they were very good cars. The styling had just been refreshed and unless Toyota coincidentally wanted out of the partnership, killing Pontiac also a successful model with no GM equivalent.

Someone else has written that many GMC buyers don't consider Chevy as a second purchase choice. Now that's advertising.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

I’m looking at vehicles in operation data forecast out to 2045. Even at current EV growth rates in 2045, ICE vehicles will be more than 50% of the vehicles on the road. That’s why I keep saying most of us will be long dead by the time ICE breathes its last breath.

If the EPA reqs for highway mileage stay on their current trajectory, any new ICE by then will be an under 1.0L displacment quad-cam staged turbos grenade. But yeah, tell us again how the OEMs aren't being forced into EVs. I pray the aftermarket parts segment steps into the void to keep legacy NA ICE going past 500,000 miles.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I know the G8 became the SS eventually, but like the 6th gen, I don't think GM made much an effort telling anyone about it. I saw one at a dealership once and had to take a couple of double takes to realize what I was looking at. It is possible to take the sleeper look too far.

The Vibe was also a unique (and very successful) Pontiac model. I owned two of them and while I wasn't crazy about the Toyota/Pontiac hybrid aspect, they were very good cars. The styling had just been refreshed and unless Toyota coincidentally wanted out of the partnership, killing Pontiac also a successful model with no GM equivalent.

Someone else has written that many GMC buyers don't consider Chevy as a second purchase choice. Now that's advertising.

No reason why if Toyota/GM wanted to continue the partnership the Vibe couldn't become a Chevy either.

I don't recall the unwinding the partnership too well, but we do know the plant where the Vibe was built is now building Tesla's.

[GXP08jrf]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

No reason why if Toyota/GM wanted to continue the partnership the Vibe couldn't become a Chevy either.
.

The franchise contracts that GM had with the wind-down Pontiac dealers make this type of "product swap / rebadging" difficult. To be able to get out of the contracts and go through bankruptcy, GM has to demonstrate how and why those contracts/assets are bad. It doesn't do the company any favors to claim in court that a brand is not profitable, then turn around and sell their products under another brand. It's not as simple as what I can put into 3 or 4 sentances here, but it's the gist. GM went through that pain with Oldsmobile...

I've only really seen this once where that Saturn VUE became the Chevrolet Captiva (fleet only sales) after Saturn's wind-down. I presume the reason this was able to be done is because the VUE already existed as a Chevrolet branded vehicle in other markets.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I know the G8 became the SS eventually, but like the 6th gen, I don't think GM made much an effort telling anyone about it. I saw one at a dealership once and had to take a couple of double takes to realize what I was looking at. It is possible to take the sleeper look too far.

The Vibe was also a unique (and very successful) Pontiac model. I owned two of them and while I wasn't crazy about the Toyota/Pontiac hybrid aspect, they were very good cars. The styling had just been refreshed and unless Toyota coincidentally wanted out of the partnership, killing Pontiac also a successful model with no GM equivalent.

Someone else has written that many GMC buyers don't consider Chevy as a second purchase choice. Now that's advertising.

IIRC GM never intended to sell the SS in large quantities. I believe it had something to do with either restrictions on how many they could import from Australia or the exchange rate + a combination of just keeping the assembly line rolling.