[Marine Corps]

The newly designed Mustang GT with its cool sounding exhaust is very good-looking. And here in my area they're around $41 - $43k fully-loaded. I don't like the Dodge's at all. That being said I wouldn't considered a Mustang unless it was a GT-350 at not more than $55k. That's why I have a 2SS Camaro. I checked all the boxes when I ordered it late last year. Granted, it's not perfect, but almost! I made the right choice, but don't fault anyone else for making a different one. They're all American-made Pony cars.

[aestil]

Originally Posted by Marty McFlew

Look at that tall red bar! Mustang is KING of Sales. Why!? Somebody tell me WHY!!!

I mean, the Mustang doesn't sell as much as the Camry or Civic or Prius, can someone tell me WHYYYYYY!!!!!!! Kappa

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by aestil

The Mustang back seat is equally worthless.

Agreed. IMO, all 2-door vehicles have a worthless back seat to me due to the restricted access and lack of rear doors/windows and instant onset of claustrophobia. How many people to do you know that want to climb into the back of any sports coupe and are like yeah this is nice back here? No one has even said or though it was nice and comfortable ever. Not in a G37/Q60 coupe, BRZ, FRZ, Camaro, Honda Civic or Accord coupe, Mustang, Challenger, Genesis, etc. etc. The back seat in all of these cars are worthless. If you need a back seat you need a Charger or some 4 door sports sedan or better yet buy an SUV or pickup truck if you want practicality.

[Marty McFlew]

I'm in the market for a no frills 1SS, w/stick. But frankly I don't think I would pay much over $34k for it. Currently have an 11 which am happy with but if the prices were right I would already be driving a 16. The only reason not looking at a Mustang is the Chinese made manual transmisions. If they GT came with a tremec I would be looking at them even though I prefer the Camaro.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yeah. Whatever way you want to spin it, I would bet GM is not happy with the low volume. Yes it does look like it was another down month, but I was not expecting a drop like this.

I have seen no more than 5 on the street since they have been released in Oct.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

C'mon people, I did my part.

I agree the pricing is higher than I would like but if you really perform the analysis comparisons there is nothing that truly compares for the money. The Camaro SS is being compared to BMW M4s and the like now. It drives like a Corvette Stingray and costs $20k less, how can you beat it? As for the actual sales numbers, as it has been discussed before we don't know the profit structure on the Camaro so just because they are selling fewer cars that doesn't mean they are turning a healthy profit.

Taking the Camaro upmarket usually means lower overall sales but higher profits. I was just comparing a Camaro 2SS to an Audi RS5. The Camaro edges it out in performance and the base Audi RS5 starts at $72k. The challenge you run into when you creep into that $45-50k range is that you start to reach the buyers who are willing to pay for status brands. BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti, Lexus, etc. These status brands also lease out much better that a Camaro. A loaded Camaro 2SS with $0 down is gonna lease out around $600 or more per month. You could lease many luxury sports coupes/sedans with decent performance for $100-200 less per month.

So, the question is what type of buyer actually buys the Camaro? I think the old school muscle car enthusiasts are probably buying the Challengers. They have that big over the top presence when rolling down the road, shaker hoods and great retro looks. Some may argue it is more practical but c'mon no one buys any of these cars for practicality. The Camaro buyer is someone who appreciates the lines of a sportier coupe as well as lighter weight and better handling. IMO, the Mustang appeals to a wider range folks. It strikes a pretty good balance of styling and performance for the non-enthusiast. If a true enthusiast really compares the Mustang GT and Camaro SS it will be glaringly obvious that the Camaro offers a lot more.

For example, the Camaro SS comes with bigger wheels and includes expensive run-flat tires, NPP and MRC options, quick shifting A8 auto or a rev-matching Tremec 6 speed vs. not very well received MT82 manual. The Camaro gets the LT1 engine with direct injection technology making more hp and tq across the entire rpm range. Inside, you get HUD with g-meter, Nav system that can integrate with display and HUD, ventilated leather seats, WiFi LTE, wireless phone charger, blah, blah.

C'mon folks go test drive one. You will love it.

Yeh...they perform better but GM does not get the fact that if the prices were right they would be selling like hotcakes. The more people see them on the road the more they will sell. Profits can also be had by volume sells instead of a sell every now and then with just a little larger profit. With the right price that enough to get them in the showroom and then its up to the dealer to start getting them to buy options to bring the price up. I keep getting the feeling that GM is still not being run right. Are the people 9in charge real car guys or just ex-bankers or Air conditioning sale execs?

[raptor5244]

For kicks I went to the Ford site to build a loaded up Mustang GT as close as I could to my Camaro build. I was at $44k for the Mustang, once I added, 20" wheels and tires, Navigation, Blindspot system, automatic trans, etc. and I was still stuck with a dated 6 speed auto and no option for an cool stuff NPP like exhaust or Magnetic ride. I priced out the Camaro 2SS, which as you all know comes with just about everything standard and I was at 43k. So, on the upper trim these cars match up price-wise when you match up the content.

[raptor5244]

If I price out base Mustang GT with only the Performance Pack, because c'mon to even compare the Mustang to the 1SS Camaro you need to have that in the build. I get $36k MSRP on the website vs. the Camaro at $37.3k. Just the fact that you get a Tremec rev-matching manual vs. the garbage MT82 manual in the Ford is worth the $1300 delta all day long. Now add in the performance of the LT1, less weight, options for NPP and Magride. Let's be real...

[raptor5244]

Now over to the Challenger. If you are gonna compare a Challenger to a Camaro SS it goes without question that you need to compare it to a Scat Pack. I built one of those as close as I could to my Camaro and I am at $45k and still no magride option. The point is that the pricing isn't as far off as most people think it is as long as you compare apples to apples. If the market wants a cheap V8 then they can buy the base Mustang GT and base Challenger RT. If the buyer is an enthusiast and does their homework by comparing them on paper and via a test drive then they will quickly realize that the Camaro SS is the clear leader.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Now over to the Challenger. If you are gonna compare a Challenger to a Camaro SS it goes without question that you need to compare it to a Scat Pack. I built one of those as close as I could to my Camaro and I am at $45k and still no magride option. The point is that the pricing isn't as far off as most people think it is as long as you compare apples to apples. If the market wants a cheap V8 then they can buy the base Mustang GT and base Challenger RT. If the buyer is an enthusiast and does their homework by comparing them on paper and via a test drive then they will quickly realize that the Camaro SS is the clear leader.

MOST pony car shoppers

V8 Check
Sporty look ...Check
Electronic goodies.....check
Price.......

[American Legend]

Originally Posted by Marine Corps

.......They're all American-made Pony cars.

At least 2 of the 3 are still owned by American Companies (GM and Ford).
Sorry Dodge (Owned by Fiat).

[American Legend]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

For kicks I went to the Ford site to build a loaded up Mustang GT as close as I could to my Camaro build. I was at $44k for the Mustang, once I added, 20" wheels and tires, Navigation, Blindspot system, automatic trans, etc. and I was still stuck with a dated 6 speed auto and no option for an cool stuff NPP like exhaust or Magnetic ride. I priced out the Camaro 2SS, which as you all know comes with just about everything standard and I was at 43k. So, on the upper trim these cars match up price-wise when you match up the content.

Ford dealer cost out the door is a different story.
go to autotrader.com or cargurus.com.
You'll find loaded '16 Mustang GT Premiums for ~$37,000.

[American Legend]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

If I price out base Mustang GT with only the Performance Pack, because c'mon to even compare the Mustang to the 1SS Camaro you need to have that in the build. I get $36k MSRP on the website vs. the Camaro at $37.3k. Just the fact that you get a Tremec rev-matching manual vs. the garbage MT82 manual in the Ford is worth the $1300 delta all day long. Now add in the performance of the LT1, less weight, options for NPP and Magride. Let's be real...

The MT82 Getrag had its issues initially in 2011. Ford made small improvements through 2014 to address some issues.

The 2015+ MT82 Getrag had even more changes. It's now a solid transmission (not perfect, but solid).
I'm not saying its as good as the Tremec, but it's not garbage as some have stated.

[Doc]

After giving it a considerable amount of thought, I think price is kind-of sort-of the issue but in a roundabout way. The Camaro team was so focused on performance they went out and created a car with capabilities that compete squarely with cars twice the price. This is great and they did a fantastic job... under the skin.

Here's where the problem comes in. The Camaro as a brand doesn't have the brand reputation of a car that's $50k+ which is the category its performance actually puts it. The problem I think is that it has the styling of a car that sells for $30k+, not $60k-$70k-$80k which is where its performance is competing. For those who understand the performance value, they're buying it (people on this site for example) because they value the performance. Unfortunately that group is not the majority. I think the majority of buyers are primarily influenced by looks, and they're looking at a car that in their perception does not have the name, status or looks that fit the sticker price.

Now, IF the Camaro had the looks of an $80k car, but a sticker price of $40k+ you can bet they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots. Price is only an issue if the customer doesn't perceive the product as being worth the price. Once you cross a certain price point, looks and status become much more important. Unfortunately it appears the customer base has decided the Camaro has crossed that line. In their minds it just doesn't have the looks to match the sticker price. They're apparently still thinking of it as a $25k-$40k car, and the styling isn't different or exotic enough to convince them otherwise.

I know it's going to be expensive, but they may need to do a visual refresh much earlier than planned. The performance is already there to compete with $70k+ cars; they just need to put the effort into the looks so it looks like it performs. Now I know the uproar is coming from those who bought one and feel the need to justify it by defending the looks, but the sales trends clearly indicate there's an issue which they are going to want to address. I think they need to upgrade the looks to match the performance category, otherwise the public isn't going to change its perception of the Camaro's value.