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Old 10-06-2015, 10:45 PM   #43
GTIanZ28

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28sr2fast4yall View Post
As far as horsepower vs torque goes...

“You know, a lot of people buy horsepower, when what they really want is torque,”

“Torque is what gets you to the speed you want quickly; horsepower is what keeps you there.”

"Horsepower sells engines and cars. But torque moves the car." - Kevin McClelland, Flowmaster Mufflers

"It takes torque to get a car moving." - Dick Miller, Dick Miller Racing
I think you are hitting all the points with this post. Even though the new V6 beats out the LT1 HP of the 1993-1996 era LT1 V8's... The V6 is down on torque vs the gen4 z28. I am betting the butt check puts that ancient z28 up on the shear seat of the pants acceleration feel. Torque being the reason.

So even though the v6 will be faster than those ancient z28's I bet those old cars would feel faster.
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:57 PM   #44
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wow, that 0-60 was crazy quick. looked sub 4 seconds.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:28 PM   #45
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On the debate of horsepower — "horsepower" is just a marketing term to express the more general term "power" which we normally use watts to measure. Watts are usually used in the context of electrical power, but it's proper to use watts when talking about mechanical power, electrical power, or any form of power.

"The metric horsepower of 75 kgf-m per second is approximately equivalent to 735.5 watts or 98.6% of an imperial mechanical horsepower." (Wikipedia)

Power (in in joules/second or "watts") = work / time
Work (in joules) = force x displacement (in meters) over which force is applied

In other words: Engine power should technically be measured in watts, not horsepower. Horsepower is a legacy term for an approximation of how much power (in watts) a horse would make — eg: 735.5 watts. Horsepower (watts) is a measure of force applied over a distance, divided by the amount of time it takes to travel that distance. Distance / time is another way of saying speed, so really, horsepower is the force with which the engine sends you forward x speed.

Horsepower = force to move forward x speed —therefore— Horsepower / force to move forward = speed. Force is mass x acceleration. So if you have less HP, but require less force to move forward due to lighter mass, you can still achieve higher speeds.

Trucks have a ton of horsepower and torque. But because of their big mass, they don't set speed records.

Unlike horsepower, the explanation of torque is a ton simpler. It's just "twisting force." It's measured in newton-meters. It's force x the distance from the center of what is being twisted. Force is measured in newtons, distance is in meters, so thats how newton-meters is derived.

Therefore, if we're discussing whether torque or horsepower is more important: This isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Horsepower is the measure of the speed and forward force at a moment in time, and torque is a measure of how herd the engine is applying twisting force to bring you up to speed. Two different things. Once the torque peaks out, the engine continues to build horsepower until it reaches its peak, but at a much less sharp rate. This is why in a torque curve vs horsepower curve plot, the torque typically peaks first:



This is a really long-winded way of saying the below statement is accurate:

“Torque is what gets you to the speed you want quickly; horsepower is what keeps you there.”

Last edited by RenegadeXR; 10-06-2015 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:38 PM   #46
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Went to that shops website to see what kind of dyno they used. They had a pic of a 2015 Mustang that they baselined with the printout and got 366 WHP. Looks like the SS has a big advantage there!
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:36 AM   #47
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Deleted.... Stupid post
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:51 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuckermaclain View Post
Went to that shops website to see what kind of dyno they used. They had a pic of a 2015 Mustang that they baselined with the printout and got 366 WHP. Looks like the SS has a big advantage there!
I'm sorry but I have to speak up here. Unless the Mustang and Camaro were dynoed back to back on the same dyno you wouldn't know the true difference. Even then there are variables that get unaccounted for with a chassis dyno. And still yet you would only know the RWHP difference and not the actual power output difference as all cars don't have the same drivetrain loss.

Bottom line, no engine is underrated anymore. These engines have verified power output within 1%.
The LT1 makes 20-25 more HP and 60 or so torque above the Gen 2 Coyote.
The 6th Gen SS is now not only more powerful than its pony GT rival but is lighter as well with and in some cases has better overall gearing.
I don't even think it will be a drivers race like previous years.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:08 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by GTIanZ28 View Post
Wow. I went back to check up on the progress since the 0-60 was posted. Dr. Pill has taken far too much of his own medicine. That dude is truly crazy, delusional, and needs some psychiatric help. I don't care if he shouldn't be mentioned here. There is something wrong with that guy. He is certifiably insane.
And you just can't stop talking about him...

Here's a thought, make a thread where you guys can circlejerk in one spot about him and stop crapping up every thread on the forums, eh?

Back on topic:

Love the videos, can't wait to finally see them in person on the 24th.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:39 AM   #50
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Just remember that chassis dunks are not accurate and comparing chassis dump numbers to SAE engine dynos is no way to figure out drivetrain loss. Every chassis dyno has so many variables from heat, humidity, air pressure, plus the equipment itself that makes it impossible to accurate/real numbers. The chassis dyno is good to see the power curves, get an estimate of overall power and use for tuning.

On a race track the location of the power curve is very important, the LT1 in the gen4 made very low end torque which was foR 0-60 and that's it, it fell on its face after 70-80. On the track the engine spends it time over 3,500rpms up to redline which is why a high torque curve is important for track cars.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:45 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z28sr2fast4yall View Post
As far as horsepower vs torque goes...

“You know, a lot of people buy horsepower, when what they really want is torque,”

“Torque is what gets you to the speed you want quickly; horsepower is what keeps you there.”

"Horsepower sells engines and cars. But torque moves the car." - Kevin McClelland, Flowmaster Mufflers

"It takes torque to get a car moving." - Dick Miller, Dick Miller Racing
Torque is force
HP is the rate the force can be applied.
Accelerating from zero or up a hill, torque matters (ie 1970 Biuck Stage 1)
If you are in motion, power
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:07 AM   #52
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No matter whether you consider torque or HP the greatest attribute, this car is definitely fast for a baseline V8. Reports so far, make it a real contender in a race against the current Corvette and puts the C6 base Corvettes on notice...you're not the fastest sporty car on the street any more! I'm praying they fixed the axle hop so prevalent in the 5th Gen 6 speeds.
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:13 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RenegadeXR View Post
On the debate of horsepower — "horsepower" is just a marketing term to express the more general term "power" which we normally use watts to measure. Watts are usually used in the context of electrical power, but it's proper to use watts when talking about mechanical power, electrical power, or any form of power.

"The metric horsepower of 75 kgf-m per second is approximately equivalent to 735.5 watts or 98.6% of an imperial mechanical horsepower." (Wikipedia)

Power (in in joules/second or "watts") = work / time
Work (in joules) = force x displacement (in meters) over which force is applied

In other words: Engine power should technically be measured in watts, not horsepower. Horsepower is a legacy term for an approximation of how much power (in watts) a horse would make — eg: 735.5 watts. Horsepower (watts) is a measure of force applied over a distance, divided by the amount of time it takes to travel that distance. Distance / time is another way of saying speed, so really, horsepower is the force with which the engine sends you forward x speed.

Horsepower = force to move forward x speed —therefore— Horsepower / force to move forward = speed. Force is mass x acceleration. So if you have less HP, but require less force to move forward due to lighter mass, you can still achieve higher speeds.

Trucks have a ton of horsepower and torque. But because of their big mass, they don't set speed records.

Unlike horsepower, the explanation of torque is a ton simpler. It's just "twisting force." It's measured in newton-meters. It's force x the distance from the center of what is being twisted. Force is measured in newtons, distance is in meters, so thats how newton-meters is derived.

Therefore, if we're discussing whether torque or horsepower is more important: This isn't really an apples to apples comparison. Horsepower is the measure of the speed and forward force at a moment in time, and torque is a measure of how herd the engine is applying twisting force to bring you up to speed. Two different things. Once the torque peaks out, the engine continues to build horsepower until it reaches its peak, but at a much less sharp rate. This is why in a torque curve vs horsepower curve plot, the torque typically peaks first:



This is a really long-winded way of saying the below statement is accurate:

“Torque is what gets you to the speed you want quickly; horsepower is what keeps you there.”
Horsepower is not a marketing or legacy term, it just happens to be a measure of power based in U.S. units. Watts are no more proper than horsepower, they just happen to be based on the metric system.
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:50 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric SS View Post
I've driven manual tranny cars since I could drive and swore I would NEVER get an auto pony/muscle car. I was on the fence with the 6th gen but this video has convinced me that this is the tranny to have now. There is no longer the excuse that a manual is superior to an automatic at all. And with paddle shifters, you can get almost as much control as you can with the manual.
Most people who buy manual buy it for the fun & connection with the car. I had a BMW DCT & Gen 3.8 8sp. They're extremely fast shifting but after a while it gets very very boring all you do is floor it and go fast. Manuals never gets old, now that we have Rev-Match I feel like manuals are more attractive than ever
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Old 10-07-2015, 08:40 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Arrow signs View Post
Mustang is in the neighborhood of 375RWHP - 355RWTQ
For comparison, the Scat Pack Challenger dynos at around 430rwhp. Even with its added weight, I'll have to line up my new Camaro with my new Charger Scat Pack and see which one wins, and swap drivers too, to see if its consistent.

Note that my Camaro will be an M6 while the Charger Scat Pack was ordered with an A8. Around corners, there's no question the Camaro will win, but... is that extra 25 horsepower enough to make up for the added weight?

(also, which one will be delivered first? TPW of 10/19 for the Camaro and a production week of 11/9, but it seems that the Charger has quicker delivery times?)
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Last edited by joemosfet; 10-07-2015 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 10-07-2015, 08:44 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by rayhawk View Post
Horsepower is not a marketing or legacy term, it just happens to be a measure of power based in U.S. units. Watts are no more proper than horsepower, they just happen to be based on the metric system.
Yeah, I was about to say.. his post is like saying "to measure a string you need to use meters, not inches, because meters is the correct way to measure length."

Both watts and horsepower are a way to measure and compare power like inches and meters are a way of measuring and comparing length.
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