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Old 08-24-2015, 07:47 PM   #29
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Yeah that's the way I read it unless we're reading it wrong? If the 1AG37 1LT base model has a V6 to start with at that price, that changes everything. But then why list the V6 as $1,495 extra? Is there a way for anyone in the know to find out if we're mis-reading this?
Pretty sure it's common knowledge that the Turbo-4 is the standard engine. The V-6 is the "optional" engine for either the 1LT or 2LT...So I read it that the V-6 price is added to the base...

Here's the thread...http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420633
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:05 PM   #30
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The reason that the new Camaro is priced higher is because GM has to please the share holders. Without profits the share holders won't be happy. The IPO in 2010 was around $34 a share today below $30.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:20 PM   #31
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The reason that the new Camaro is priced higher is because GM has to please the share holders. Without profits the share holders won't be happy. The IPO in 2010 was around $34 a share today below $30.
So what makes more profit; 10,000 cars with a $2000 profit or 50,000 cars with a $1,000 profit? The share holders were certainly not very pleased when GM was filing bankruptcy in 2009 but fortunately the Camaro enthusiasts at GM were able to get the 5th gen Camaro out the door which did wonders for helping GM to recover financially. They have a superstar team there; they need to let them do more than just worry about being cautious and hope to feed the next quarterly report.

The new Camaro is priced higher because they really went for it and made it a fantastic sports GT. I think it's absolutely worth the price they're asking. In my opinion they need to also start on a genuine entry-level model that brings new customers into the Camaro family. Right now it looks like they're going to mostly sell to the customers they already have, and how far can that go in the next 5-10 years?

They have a REALLY good thing going with the Camaro; it's such a great car. Create an entry-level model at a price point new generations of customers can afford and get excited about. If they sell many times more of them than Camaros that's okay.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:35 PM   #32
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Drop the 270 hp TT engine into a Cruze, offering it in an otherwise pretty basic car for 21-22K. No one would by a Dodge Dart ever again.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:48 PM   #33
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Drop the 270 hp TT engine into a Cruze, offering it in an otherwise pretty basic car for 21-22K. No one would by a Dodge Dart ever again.
Except the Cruze is getting a 1.6T 170HP when the new gen starts production next Feb.

And it already has the 2.0T but call it Verano. Selling not much over 50% of projections, meeting expectations almost as well as the Dart.

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Old 08-24-2015, 09:01 PM   #34
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If something is going to cannibalize one of your products, it had better be another one of your products. The Camaro is now no longer affordable for the entry-level buyer which means you no longer have a growing market base. That's not good.

The car you get when you design to be profitable at $20k is a pony car; not a sports GT which is what the Camaro has become. I honestly don't think there'd be that much cannibalization of the low end of the Camaro because the buyer who can just afford a $20k car cannot and will not buy a $30k+ car which is where the Camaro is now by the time you add tax, license and any kind of extra.

I'm not advocating an uber machine, a sports car to compete with Miata's or anything else. I'm talking about a basic, minimum frills sporty fun car like the original '67 Camaro (basically a re-issue of that style but with slightly modernized styling). The buyer who can afford that will mod it over time, and as they get older will become Camaro customers with fond memories of their first "pony" car. If Chevrolet doesn't cultivate a new base of customers that can grow the Camaro family beyond what they already have, they're facing diminishing returns like they did in the past until there's no longer a justifiable cost basis to keep making Camaros.
The group formerly known as 'Entry Level Buyers' aren't buying new cars anymore. They're buying used. And its not because the new cars are too expensive. If there were hundreds of thousands of buyers interested in cheap, de-contented new cars then the Mitsubishi Mirage would be the #1 selling vehicle in America. Its not. That title belongs to the Ford F-series, with an average transaction price of $44,000 (more than triple the base MSRP of the Mirage).



And it can be worse to cannibalize your own sales than to lose a few to a competitor (and at the moment, there isn't anything in the segment you're describing for a new low cost RWD 4 seater so I fail to see who GM would be losing sales to). Investing a billion dollars into a new product to make a few thousand extra sales per year is a terrible idea -unless you can make an enormous amount of money off each of those sales. But since we're talking about cars in the low $20k price range, thats not going to happen.

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So what makes more profit; 10,000 cars with a $2000 profit or 50,000 cars with a $1,000 profit? The share holders were certainly not very pleased when GM was filing bankruptcy in 2009 but fortunately the Camaro enthusiasts at GM were able to get the 5th gen Camaro out the door which did wonders for helping GM to recover financially. They have a superstar team there; they need to let them do more than just worry about being cautious and hope to feed the next quarterly report.
That assumes that there is more demand for the cheaper car. And that the increase in profit is marginal as you go up in price.

GM, like most businesses, looks to see how they can get the most return on their investment. For the few that they might gain (because people generally don't buy cheap, no option cars anymore) it will require a gigantic investment. For a much smaller investment, they could do a Super Sonic or a Cruze SS or a cheapo Camaro LS again, hit a similar price point and achieve similar sales.
Quote:
The new Camaro is priced higher because they really went for it and made it a fantastic sports GT. I think it's absolutely worth the price they're asking. In my opinion they need to also start on a genuine entry-level model that brings new customers into the Camaro family. Right now it looks like they're going to mostly sell to the customers they already have, and how far can that go in the next 5-10 years?

They have a REALLY good thing going with the Camaro; it's such a great car. Create an entry-level model at a price point new generations of customers can afford and get excited about. If they sell many times more of them than Camaros that's okay.
What is preventing people from buying used Camaros, like generations of people before them? There are something like half a million 5th gens running around these days, waiting for a 2nd or 3rd buyer to enjoy them just as much as the original owner.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
If something is going to cannibalize one of your products, it had better be another one of your products. The Camaro is now no longer affordable for the entry-level buyer which means you no longer have a growing market base. That's not good.

The car you get when you design to be profitable at $20k is a pony car; not a sports GT which is what the Camaro has become. I honestly don't think there'd be that much cannibalization of the low end of the Camaro because the buyer who can just afford a $20k car cannot and will not buy a $30k+ car which is where the Camaro is now by the time you add tax, license and any kind of extra.

I'm not advocating an uber machine, a sports car to compete with Miata's or anything else. I'm talking about a basic, minimum frills sporty fun car like the original '67 Camaro (basically a re-issue of that style but with slightly modernized styling). The buyer who can afford that will mod it over time, and as they get older will become Camaro customers with fond memories of their first "pony" car. If Chevrolet doesn't cultivate a new base of customers that can grow the Camaro family beyond what they already have, they're facing diminishing returns like they did in the past until there's no longer a justifiable cost basis to keep making Camaros.

I'm not saying start going into production and hope they sell. I'm saying make a concept car or even just a concept render that can be viewed online. See what the reaction is.



Yeah that's the way I read it unless we're reading it wrong? If the 1AG37 1LT base model has a V6 to start with at that price, that changes everything. But then why list the V6 as $1,495 extra? Is there a way for anyone in the know to find out if we're mis-reading this?
Yes, any sport or sporty or performance car priced at $20 to $23k will canabalize sales from Camaro........and Cruze SS. It is that simple unless you can make a case that 100% of new sales would only canabalize Ford, Toyota, Subaru, et al
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:45 PM   #36
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Heavy lady? WTF? Have you driven an ATS with the 2.0T? It's a mid 5 second
no i didn't. But if its a s good as you say on the ATS it will be fun ti drive on the camaro too.but what im trying to say is however good it is on the ats/camaro it will be much more impressive on a smaller and lighter car like the cruze.come on, think about it.do you think the engine on the toyota 86/FR-S will produce the same performance numbers on the 2door prado?there is a lot of weight difference between a car like the ats and a car like cruze?

just sayin....
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:30 PM   #37
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I think what Number 3 is stating about sales cannibalization makes sense. Sometimes we forget that companies like GM do have a profit motive. I also don't really think there are too many entry-level buyers who are going to be eager to purchase an American car that's all show and no go. As said, the Dart is a good example of that, and it didn't work out too well. A turbo Cruze, on the other hand? Hell yeah, make it happen. I can see a buyer segment for that — practicality + fun + more modest design than that Camaro. That will fit a niche that Chevy isn't filling right now. I would definitely buy one as a daily driver, allowing my Camaro to become a full-fledged project car. However, there's no way this will be $16k or less, more like $20k new.

Also bear in mind the sort of business climate we're in. American cars have gotten much, much better in the last decade. The second-hand market for used vehicles is very strong. Lots of people want the 2010 Camaros that they couldn't get new either because they were too young or because it was out of their price range at the time. For a nearly 7-year old car (or even older if you consider the first concepts that rolled out in the mid 2000's), the 5th gen is still a very modern looking vehicle by all accounts and will cover the entry-level buyer segment that wants style and performance. You can get a certified pre-owned v8 power-house in the mid to low 20k range, which is very very reasonable.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:53 AM   #38
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You realize the super cheap base model Camaro from Gen 5, the LS model, is not being offered this time around because no one bought them. It would be a waste of time and effort especially when if GM were to give you what you and others want, you wouldn't buy it anyway ala the LS.
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Old 08-25-2015, 01:58 AM   #39
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You realize the super cheap base model Camaro from Gen 5, the LS model, is not being offered this time around because no one bought them. It would be a waste of time and effort especially when if GM were to give you what you and others want, you wouldn't buy it anyway ala the LS.
But someone with a low budget and a love for american designing would never go with an FRS or a BRZ
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:36 AM   #40
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I think what Number 3 is stating about sales cannibalization makes sense. Sometimes we forget that companies like GM do have a profit motive. I also don't really think there are too many entry-level buyers who are going to be eager to purchase an American car that's all show and no go. As said, the Dart is a good example of that, and it didn't work out too well. A turbo Cruze, on the other hand? Hell yeah, make it happen. I can see a buyer segment for that — practicality + fun + more modest design than that Camaro. That will fit a niche that Chevy isn't filling right now. I would definitely buy one as a daily driver, allowing my Camaro to become a full-fledged project car. However, there's no way this will be $16k or less, more like $20k new.

Also bear in mind the sort of business climate we're in. American cars have gotten much, much better in the last decade. The second-hand market for used vehicles is very strong. Lots of people want the 2010 Camaros that they couldn't get new either because they were too young or because it was out of their price range at the time. For a nearly 7-year old car (or even older if you consider the first concepts that rolled out in the mid 2000's), the 5th gen is still a very modern looking vehicle by all accounts and will cover the entry-level buyer segment that wants style and performance. You can get a certified pre-owned v8 power-house in the mid to low 20k range, which is very very reasonable.
They make a turbo Cruze today. It isn't the 2.0T, but it is a turbo.
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Old 08-25-2015, 07:55 AM   #41
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Entry level performance model is needed by GM to compete with the ST line from Ford
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:23 PM   #42
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The group formerly known as 'Entry Level Buyers' aren't buying new cars anymore. They're buying used. And its not because the new cars are too expensive. If there were hundreds of thousands of buyers interested in cheap, de-contented new cars then the Mitsubishi Mirage would be the #1 selling vehicle in America. Its not. That title belongs to the Ford F-series, with an average transaction price of $44,000 (more than triple the base MSRP of the Mirage).

Yes they are; they're just buying foreign cars mostly. I see new ones around town here all the time. And the Mirage?? Really?? I'm not talking about econo-bugs, I'm talking about a pony car. They had VW Bugs in 1964 too when Ford came out with the Mustang. Mustang sales exploded and the rest is history.

And it can be worse to cannibalize your own sales than to lose a few to a competitor (and at the moment, there isn't anything in the segment you're describing for a new low cost RWD 4 seater so I fail to see who GM would be losing sales to). Investing a billion dollars into a new product to make a few thousand extra sales per year is a terrible idea -unless you can make an enormous amount of money off each of those sales. But since we're talking about cars in the low $20k price range, thats not going to happen.

You kinda sorta made my point; there isn't anything in the segment I'm describing so cannibalization would be minimal. But I think the potential for a strong new segment is certainly there. Kind of like what happened when Ford came out with the original Mustang in 1964.


That assumes that there is more demand for the cheaper car. And that the increase in profit is marginal as you go up in price.

GM, like most businesses, looks to see how they can get the most return on their investment. For the few that they might gain (because people generally don't buy cheap, no option cars anymore) it will require a gigantic investment. For a much smaller investment, they could do a Super Sonic or a Cruze SS or a cheapo Camaro LS again, hit a similar price point and achieve similar sales.
What is preventing people from buying used Camaros, like generations of people before them? There are something like half a million 5th gens running around these days, waiting for a 2nd or 3rd buyer to enjoy them just as much as the original owner.
I think the same potential market segment exists today that existed when the original pony cars first debuted. Yes people can certainly buy used cars but that doesn't make a dime for GM. They only make money when they make and sell new vehicles. There's nothing wrong with thinking beyond what's currently going on and reaching for new opportunities because if you don't, somebody else will.

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Yes, any sport or sporty or performance car priced at $20 to $23k will canabalize sales from Camaro........and Cruze SS. It is that simple unless you can make a case that 100% of new sales would only canabalize Ford, Toyota, Subaru, et al
No of course the cannibalization wouldn't be 100% from everyone else. But if the majority of sales are in fact being taken from your competitors then you've grown your customer base. And even for those few that you may have cannibalized from other models in your own catalog, at least you're still making the money. Imagine if you're one of those other companies and suddenly GM is vacuuming up a large portion of one of your market segments. Who would be worried about cannibalization at that point? GM or the other guys?

GM has to do something to grow their customer base if they want to survive in the long run. Reinventing the pony car phenomenon wouldn't be a bad way to do it in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by RenegadeXR View Post
I think what Number 3 is stating about sales cannibalization makes sense. Sometimes we forget that companies like GM do have a profit motive. I also don't really think there are too many entry-level buyers who are going to be eager to purchase an American car that's all show and no go. As said, the Dart is a good example of that, and it didn't work out too well. A turbo Cruze, on the other hand? Hell yeah, make it happen. I can see a buyer segment for that — practicality + fun + more modest design than that Camaro. That will fit a niche that Chevy isn't filling right now. I would definitely buy one as a daily driver, allowing my Camaro to become a full-fledged project car. However, there's no way this will be $16k or less, more like $20k new.

Also bear in mind the sort of business climate we're in. American cars have gotten much, much better in the last decade. The second-hand market for used vehicles is very strong. Lots of people want the 2010 Camaros that they couldn't get new either because they were too young or because it was out of their price range at the time. For a nearly 7-year old car (or even older if you consider the first concepts that rolled out in the mid 2000's), the 5th gen is still a very modern looking vehicle by all accounts and will cover the entry-level buyer segment that wants style and performance. You can get a certified pre-owned v8 power-house in the mid to low 20k range, which is very very reasonable.
The Dodge dart isn't doing any better than it is because there's nothing great about it. It looks like just another "let's take minimal risks" version of me-too euro-japanese styling. The Chevy Cruze is GM's version of a Honda/Mazda/Toyota/Euro styled car; not a pony car at all. Yes people can buy older Camaros and that's great, but it doesn't help GM today or in the future.

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You realize the super cheap base model Camaro from Gen 5, the LS model, is not being offered this time around because no one bought them. It would be a waste of time and effort especially when if GM were to give you what you and others want, you wouldn't buy it anyway ala the LS.
That was the bottom model of a car that people expected to be a high-performance muscle car which turned out to be a sports GT it was so good. People wanted power and as I recall, GM was shocked at how many more ordered the V8 than what they were expecting at first. It was a bold design like nothing else in the marketplace and it struck the right note with a market segment that wanted it. When I first saw the original concept car it stopped me dead in my tracks. My first thought when I saw it? I WANT THIS!!! If GM wants to strike that gold again they need to learn from what happened so it becomes a proven strategy instead of just a lucky fluke.

What I'm proposing is a renewal of the original pony car formula. Obviously a few of the exciting, dynamic and forward-looking visionaries here on the forum disagree. So what would you guys propose as a way for Chevy to grow their customer base for the performance car segment?
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