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Old 11-16-2017, 09:48 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by ModernCamaroZ28Fan View Post
I still find it funny that It took mustang 2 whole years of eating grass and crowds to beat the Camaro for only a temporary year before we go on a Refresh. The GT350R beats the Z28, which loses to the SS 1LE, which loses to the ZL1, which loses to the ZL1 1LE. 2018 Mustang Fans are celebrating and then what happens? Mustang fans are sad that their favorite fast car is more expensive than a camaro in which said they'd bring down the price and Mustang pretty much brought it up.
I must have missed the head to head review of the GT350R vs the SS 1LE where the GT350R looses, could you please provide this link . It does loose to both the ZL1 and ZL1-1LE which have 120+hp advantage.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:00 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
I must have missed the head to head review of the GT350R vs the SS 1LE where the GT350R looses, could you please provide this link . It does loose to both the ZL1 and ZL1-1LE which have 120+hp advantage.
There isn't really a head to head, but if you put an expert driver in a SS 1LE vs a GT350R and It's not a very straight track, The SS 1LE beats the car because it outhandles it.
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:08 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by ModernCamaroZ28Fan View Post
There isn't really a head to head, but if you put an expert driver in a SS 1LE vs a GT350R and It's not a very straight track, The SS 1LE beats the car because it outhandles it.
Where's your proof of that?
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Old 11-16-2017, 10:43 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
It does loose to both the ZL1 and ZL1-1LE which have 120+hp advantage.
Yes because we all know more HP means a faster lap time...oh wait poor Hellcat with it's 220HP "advantage" can't beat the time of a Scat Pack wearing smaller tires.


Power means nothing without the ability to use it. The ZL1 has a better power to weight for sure (not by much), but it also matches every handling metric compared to the GT350R. That's why it loses. That's also why the SS 1LE is so close because the reality is the LT4's power doesn't contribute that much to the lap times. But I wouldn't say the SS 1LE would beat the R same day/track/driver either.
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:05 AM   #467
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Yes because we all know more HP means a faster lap time...oh wait poor Hellcat with it's 220HP "advantage" can't beat the time of a Scat Pack wearing smaller tires.


Power means nothing without the ability to use it. The ZL1 has a better power to weight for sure (not by much), but it also matches every handling metric compared to the GT350R. That's why it loses. That's also why the SS 1LE is so close because the reality is the LT4's power doesn't contribute that much to the lap times. But I wouldn't say the SS 1LE would beat the R same day/track/driver either.
Sorry but were we talking about Hellcats? A car never intended to perform at a track. Or were we talking about why Chevy needs a supercharged 120+hp advantage to beat a N/A mustang by .39 seconds. But wait the SS 1LE is faster
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Old 11-16-2017, 11:32 AM   #468
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Sorry but were we talking about Hellcats? A car never intended to perform at a track. Or were we talking about why Chevy needs a supercharged 120+hp advantage to beat a N/A mustang by .39 seconds. But wait the SS 1LE is faster
No you are making out like simply having more HP is the key. It is clearly not since even with almost twice the power advantage the ZL1 has over the R, a Hellcat can't beat it's lower trim around the same track with the same driver. The Scat Pack even does worse in handling metrics than the Hellcat. Explain that one?

As for Chevy needing it. No need to remind you the ZL1 is 300lbs heavier which matters more than power added when it comes to track performance. So the reality is despite being a much heavier car, the ZL1 can still match the R's performance while being fully loaded in every sense of the word. Now if we were talking about straight line performance, I agree no comparison b/c the R was never designed to do it (except someone thought it did need Drag Mode). But at the same time the ZL1 was not designed to just be fast around a track like the R.

And I never said the SS 1LE is faster. I specifically mentioned I'm sure it is not. And the BDC's at LS proved they aren't as close as the ZL1 is to it. But the SS 1LE is down 70HP and was less than 2 secs slower? Where's that 70hp advantage there?
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:06 PM   #469
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Ford wont allow any Mags to do a H2H with the 1LE against any GT350's because of the bad press it would result in for the GT350. We all know that, and dont mention power when its advantageous to the Camaro and then pretend it doesnt matter when the shoe is on the other foot!
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:34 PM   #470
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From C&D's test on VIR:

GT350R: 2:51.8s
SS 1LE: 2:54.8s

From MT @ Laguna Seca (Randy Pobst.)

Gt350R: 1:36.11s
SS1LE: 1:37.78s

Since the GT350R is faster than the base GT350, its safe to say the 1LE is a match.

I doubt the 2018 PP2 will be faster than the GT350R lol. SS1LE will still be the performer.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:05 PM   #471
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Yep...never any track tests of a standard GT350 versus a 1LE...and that's a real shame. But based on standalone tests of the GT350, 350R, and 1LE its not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that the 1LE should be more or less just as great (or better) a track car than the standard GT350. The 350 has advantages on longer straights, and that's it.

So for Ford to beat the 1LE with their PP2, they are going to have to make it an equal, or better track car than the standard GT350 (except again of course, for the straights where that extra 60ish HP and weight advantage will help it out).

I think its possible that Ford wants a GT to run with or beat the 1LE bad enough that they will do just that...make a GT that is faster than the standard 350 on a track. But you'll never hear anyone mention it. There will be no reviews with a 350 and a PP2 on the same track. Ford and Ford fanboys will just say "but the VooDoo..."

But the truth is that for 10 grand less than the standard 350, you'll be able to buy equal or better track cars in the GT and SS.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:37 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by SuperSound View Post
No you are making out like simply having more HP is the key. It is clearly not since even with almost twice the power advantage the ZL1 has over the R, a Hellcat can't beat it's lower trim around the same track with the same driver. The Scat Pack even does worse in handling metrics than the Hellcat. Explain that one?

As for Chevy needing it. No need to remind you the ZL1 is 300lbs heavier which matters more than power added when it comes to track performance. So the reality is despite being a much heavier car, the ZL1 can still match the R's performance while being fully loaded in every sense of the word. Now if we were talking about straight line performance, I agree no comparison b/c the R was never designed to do it (except someone thought it did need Drag Mode). But at the same time the ZL1 was not designed to just be fast around a track like the R.

And I never said the SS 1LE is faster. I specifically mentioned I'm sure it is not. And the BDC's at LS proved they aren't as close as the ZL1 is to it. But the SS 1LE is down 70HP and was less than 2 secs slower? Where's that 70hp advantage there?
Bringing the Hellcat into this track time conversation would be like comparing a Hellcat to a Z28 on the dragstrip, its nonsense. The Hellcat was never designed to be a track car. Dodge proved its track prowness with the Viper ACR.

Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.

What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.
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Last edited by newmoon; 11-16-2017 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:31 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
Yep...never any track tests of a standard GT350 versus a 1LE...and that's a real shame. But based on standalone tests of the GT350, 350R, and 1LE its not difficult to arrive to the conclusion that the 1LE should be more or less just as great (or better) a track car than the standard GT350. The 350 has advantages on longer straights, and that's it.

So for Ford to beat the 1LE with their PP2, they are going to have to make it an equal, or better track car than the standard GT350 (except again of course, for the straights where that extra 60ish HP and weight advantage will help it out).

I think its possible that Ford wants a GT to run with or beat the 1LE bad enough that they will do just that...make a GT that is faster than the standard 350 on a track. But you'll never hear anyone mention it. There will be no reviews with a 350 and a PP2 on the same track. Ford and Ford fanboys will just say "but the VooDoo..."

But the truth is that for 10 grand less than the standard 350, you'll be able to buy equal or better track cars in the GT and SS.
Don't forget that GT350 can't be sold intetnationally. By upping the GT's abilities to that of the non-R 350's, Ford allows the international buyer to have that option. Also I dont believe the 350's will be around for the '19 and '20 MY's, if thats the case then the GT out performing the base 350's in a non-issue.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:37 PM   #474
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No you are making out like simply having more HP is the key. It is clearly not since even with almost twice the power advantage the ZL1 has over the R, a Hellcat can't beat it's lower trim around the same track with the same driver. The Scat Pack even does worse in handling metrics than the Hellcat. Explain that one?

As for Chevy needing it. No need to remind you the ZL1 is 300lbs heavier which matters more than power added when it comes to track performance. So the reality is despite being a much heavier car, the ZL1 can still match the R's performance while being fully loaded in every sense of the word. Now if we were talking about straight line performance, I agree no comparison b/c the R was never designed to do it (except someone thought it did need Drag Mode). But at the same time the ZL1 was not designed to just be fast around a track like the R.

And I never said the SS 1LE is faster. I specifically mentioned I'm sure it is not. And the BDC's at LS proved they aren't as close as the ZL1 is to it. But the SS 1LE is down 70HP and was less than 2 secs slower? Where's that 70hp advantage there?
so if weight matters more than power when it comes to track performance, how does the heavier ZL1 turn so much faster laps than the SS1LE power being its only signifigant advantage?
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:46 PM   #475
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Bringing the Hellcat into this track time conversation would be like comparing a Hellcat to a Z28 on the dragstrip, its nonsense. The Hellcat was never designed to be a track car. Dodge proved its track prowness with the Viper ACR.
It was a perfect analogy in response to your statement about power, but now all of a sudden when it proves you wrong its 'nonsense'?

Quote:
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Now back to the ZL1 vs GT350R, I wonder how the track time of the GT350R would have improved by giving it equal power to the ZL1? Do you think it would have improved by .39 seconds? How about if the GT350R had another 25-hp? Yes it is Ford's fault for not having a more powerful version of the Mustang at this time, but bottom line is the R lost because it lacked HP not because it was not up to the task in the handling/braking department.
It lost because it lost. There is no proof the GT350 platform could handle more power as is, so you are just assuming.

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What would happen if the two went at it for a 20-minutes session, would the ZL1 eventually start limiting power because of SC heat, would the ZL1s brakes finally give up? I'm pretty sure the R would be ok for that duration.
I think you are confusing the GT350 Tech Pack with the ZL1. The ZL1 can run just fine w/o overheating. HAHAHA 11 coolers to do so, but still.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:47 PM   #476
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so if weight matters more than power when it comes to track performance, how does the heavier ZL1 turn so much faster laps than the SS1LE power being its only signifigant advantage?
Because its extra power is enough to overcome its weight. Come on dude, I know you know that!
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