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Old 11-14-2017, 01:48 PM   #57
Marty McFlew

 
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Originally Posted by gringo View Post
Do you know anything about the decision making process that led to the rear seat bulkhead being placed too far forward on the Alpha platform?

I read something about it, early on when the 6th gen first came out, but nothing since. I guess it had something to do with the fuel tank placement for rear crash protection. This caused rear seat legroom to become severely compromised over that of the Zeta based Camaro

I know Alpha is smaller, but we're only talking 1-2 inches here and 1-2 inches there. The real improvement in structure and lower curb weight came with using stiffer materials like cast aluminum for the strut tower housings, extruded alloy for the front engine cradle, aluminum dash core support and major suspension components made from aluminum/composite instead of steel.

I'm still not happy with the fuel door opening located right behind the passenger door, but I wonder what the stylists and designers thought of that location?
Probably did it for handling to get close to that 50/50 balance to allow for those good track times along with maintaining a balance outward appearance.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Marty McFlew View Post
The 6 banger Mustang, Camaro, Challenger and Barracuda were chick cars. My mother had 65 Barracuda 6 cly. Her friend had a 68 Camaro 6cly. Yep chick cars.
Back then if you didn't have the V8 the dang car WAS slow. Heck even the V8s had what is now V6 or even t4 performance levels.

If you had a Camaro with the slant 6 and a 2 speed powergluide you got to 60 by next Tuesday.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by SuperSound View Post
While I don't think European styling is terrible, you could put a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi badge on a Aztek and it would probably sell better than it did with the Pontiac badge.
Ironically that sort of what happened with the Fake News mag Consumer Reports. Back in the 80s or 90s when Pontiac had I think it was the Vibe. It was the same exact vehicle as the Toyota Matrix right off the same line. Except for some trim detail they were the same car except one was badged Toyota and one badged Pontiac. In one addition of Consumer Reports they praised the Toyota Matrix on how great it was. Then in another earlier or later addition of CR they reviewed the Pontiac Vibe and ragged on it. It was either a known hit job or they were too stupid to know it was same vehicle that they slobbered over in another issue. You can believe CR and other media bought big stock in foreign car companies as the cars began hitting US beached in the mid to late 70s. Those same media got rich promoting those companies with good reviews and pumping up stock prices.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:07 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by fastball View Post
Back then if you didn't have the V8 the dang car WAS slow. Heck even the V8s had what is now V6 or even t4 performance levels.

If you had a Camaro with the slant 6 and a 2 speed powergluide you got to 60 by next Tuesday.
Actually a lot of the performance V8s were faster than the records show. Because if you look at the old videos of these cars being tested they are burning rubber all through 1st gear. But to put it in perspective, you could take say a 396 chevy add a modern 6speed trans with modern tires tweak or change the carb to a double pumper and it would give our Camaros a good run. But you would be getting 5 or 7 miles per gallon.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by fastball View Post
Back then if you didn't have the V8 the dang car WAS slow. Heck even the V8s had what is now V6 or even t4 performance levels.

If you had a Camaro with the slant 6 and a 2 speed powergluide you got to 60 by next Tuesday.
Camaros didn't have a slant 6. Slant 6 was Mopar only.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:09 PM   #62
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Bob who???
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:53 PM   #63
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I personally couldn’t care less what Bob Lutz or anyone else says about the Camaro vs the Mustang, nor could I care if they sell a thousand Mustangs for every Camaro! In fact I’d be happy to see less Camaros on the road. Would make mine more exclusive! I bought the Camaro over the Mustang because I preferred everything about the Camaro vs the Mustang.

As far as the worn out discussion about the Camaro visability, if you don’t like the view from the cockpit, buy a Mustang or a Challenger, or a Honda for that matter. Simple as that! Don’t buy a Camaro and spend all your time boohooing about the visability!!

When I was looking at cars to buy I wanted to look at Camaros and my wife wanted nothing to do with a Camaro because she’d heard so much about how terrible the outward visability was. She literally didn’t even want to look at one! When we found our first 15 2LT that was loaded with all the goodies she decided she’d take a look. She drove it, she loved it, and we bought it! Shortly there after we traded it for the new 16 2SS and she absolutely loves it! Drives it every day except in the winter. A month ago I bought another Camaro, a 17 V6 basic LT with a manual trans with none of the cross traffic alerts or lane change warming systems, and don’t really miss any of it, and I love driving it too! I’m 5’10” and my wife is 5’6”. Any limited visibility is easily overcome if you have the ability to turn your head from side to side, adjust the seat position, and are capable of adjusting your mirrors.
I don't really care what he says either...he just...hurt my feelings
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:58 PM   #64
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Does this genius Lutz think the first and second gen Camaros were poorly designed also?....Camaro never outsold Mustang until 1977....After all, everyone in hind-sight, and post-retirement can self-proclaim expert status...How else could you justify starting your own consulting firm?

Yeah, the Mustang is so much better...lol...

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Old 11-14-2017, 03:15 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Marty McFlew View Post
Actually a lot of the performance V8s were faster than the records show. Because if you look at the old videos of these cars being tested they are burning rubber all through 1st gear. But to put it in perspective, you could take say a 396 chevy add a modern 6speed trans with modern tires tweak or change the carb to a double pumper and it would give our Camaros a good run. But you would be getting 5 or 7 miles per gallon.
Ehh... the problem I have with that is you're going for modification to get the car to perform near contemporary standards. Once you have to start changing stuff, the comparison becomes moot. You could take that same 2-3k and dump it into a modern car and gain even more of an edge. This is why I hate the goofy comparisons you see like "Watch a Miata keep up with a Porsche 911 on the 'Ring!" Yeah, not without a lot of help. While I love the muscle car era, the performance standards set there have been eclipsed many times over. It's a very rose-colored glasses kind of thing.

Anyway... back to Bob Lutz. He's correct about the cars looking similar. The '14-15 cars specifically. I like the design regardless but I would have preferred something completely new, though the fact that it wasn't didn't keep me away from buying one.

I don't know what he's talking about with the Mustang. The Mustang looks like ass. The refreshed bumper looks like an even worse ass. When the current model debuted I would have bet money it was a cheaped-up Aston Martin. I can appreciate trying to develop a global appeal but that thing lost its heritage. If you want to jump behind the wheel of a pseudo British supercar, go for it. Not my cup of tea, Bob.

Challenger, really don't need much. It's dated, but I bet they'll still just keep stuffing bigger nonsense between it's fenders and rolling ol' grandpa back onto the stage for awhile with some new buzzword behind it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:46 PM   #66
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Lol.

Its easy to say why the Mustang has outsold Camaro (except maybe not in actual retail sales, but that's a side topic)

1) Price. When the 6th gen Camaro launched, it was significantly more expensive. Now that changes and Mustang is expensive too.
2) Style. It does look like a 5th gen and I think that hurts sales. Many people likely didn't realize it was all new or maybe they just hate the look in general and wanted something new. But (my opinion) its a great, sharp, beautiful evolution of the 5th gen. I accept that most people seem to think the mustang is the better looking car, but I don't care. To my eyes, the Camaro is the better looking car from every angle except for perhaps a straight view of the backend. She gets plenty of compliments from strangers.

The above two being the major factors, but there is this...

3) Practicality. The Camaro is just (even more so) cramped with less places to hold stuff than the Mustang. Not much, but enough.
4) Popularity. The Mustang is just more popular in my opinion.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Marty McFlew View Post
But to put it in perspective, you could take say a 396 chevy add a modern 6speed trans with modern tires tweak or change the carb to a double pumper and it would give our Camaros a good run. But you would be getting 5 or 7 miles per gallon.
No, that does not put it into perspective. 6 speeds weren’t around and bias ply tires were it.

Putting it into perspective is comparing the cars bone stock for bone stock.
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:53 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by gpskinzhut View Post
Ehh... the problem I have with that is you're going for modification to get the car to perform near contemporary standards. Once you have to start changing stuff, the comparison becomes moot. You could take that same 2-3k and dump it into a modern car and gain even more of an edge. This is why I hate the goofy comparisons you see like "Watch a Miata keep up with a Porsche 911 on the 'Ring!" Yeah, not without a lot of help. While I love the muscle car era, the performance standards set there have been eclipsed many times over. It's a very rose-colored glasses kind of thing.

Anyway... back to Bob Lutz. He's correct about the cars looking similar. The '14-15 cars specifically. I like the design regardless but I would have preferred something completely new, though the fact that it wasn't didn't keep me away from buying one.

I don't know what he's talking about with the Mustang. The Mustang looks like ass. The refreshed bumper looks like an even worse ass. When the current model debuted I would have bet money it was a cheaped-up Aston Martin. I can appreciate trying to develop a global appeal but that thing lost its heritage. If you want to jump behind the wheel of a pseudo British supercar, go for it. Not my cup of tea, Bob.

Challenger, really don't need much. It's dated, but I bet they'll still just keep stuffing bigger nonsense between it's fenders and rolling ol' grandpa back onto the stage for awhile with some new buzzword behind it.
I don't know about that. The S550 is the best looking Mustang since the '69-'70 models, in my opinion. Except for the rear side windows, the design follows the natural progression of the Mustang design heritage.

The interior, even more so. When you sit in one, the dash, interior and even the hoodline evokes memories of past classic Mustangs. Unfortunately, the same can not be said about the 6th gen. The interior and the weird looking Atari pod dash look nothing like past Camaro models. The hoodline is even different, losing that classic beautiful cowl hood of the retro based 5th gen design. The 6th gen designers instead went for a smooth rounded look with "nostril" type hood scoops. Definitely no Camaro based heritage there.

When it comes to the rear quarter side windows on the 6th gen, images of the fastback '71-'73 Mustangs come to mind. They are very different than the 5th gen and do not follow any classic heritage of past Camaros. I would have liked to have seen a return to the one piece side windows of the 2nd gen, but GM played it safe and went to a reconfigured 5th gen style.

While the S550 Mustang tried to become more upscale looking, like a premium European brand, the Camaro got stuck with a heavy emphasis on the 5th gen but with more angular and pinched in design elements.

For me, the natural progression for the 6th gen would have been to follow retro design elements of the 2nd gen F-body. This would have given it one piece side windows, a longer hood even shorter rear deck proportion, eliptical wheel well openings and a new modern interpretation of the old "RS" style front end. The original 2nd gen aspired to the classic Ferrari models of the early to mid '60's. So, a retro based styling exercise based on that for the 6th gen would have been another design "masterpiece" for GM. And, it would have carried Camaro sales even higher than what the current 6th gen has been able to achieve, in my opinion.
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:31 AM   #69
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The 6th Gen Camaro is definitely an evolution of the 5th Gen design.

But I don't get how you don't like the new interior. It's clearly an evolution too, you see a lot of similiar design elements.

Overall the 6th Gen is a more modern and sporty version of the 2014th refresh, but who can blame Chevy after the huge success of the 5th Gen? I love it, it's an awesome hybrid between muscle and sporty look.

Also if you want better performance, you just can't keep the bulky exterior of the 5th gen. Todays Performance cars have to find a sweet spot between what designers want and what is useful. You also have to design elements like hood vents and lights that they are legal in regions like EU.

I don't think going full into european look is the way too go for a pony car. Just buy an Audi or BMW if you want that luxus sedan look. I think the S550 is a great looking car, but the new Mustang refresh is really disappointing. Saw it at IAA, it really lost a lot of the american looks with that flat boring hood.



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Old 11-15-2017, 07:20 AM   #70
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The 6th Gen Camaro is definitely an evolution of the 5th Gen design.



Wow! These comparison pictures really show how dated looking the Gen5 interior has become. Either way, the premium interior in the new Mustang is much nicer than both.
Chevy interiors across the line need help.
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