[GoneBoy]

Originally Posted by NB2017ZL1

We will be here next year this exact same time writing and wondering when that MXO 10 speed auto is going to come out ... Albeit it will be a 18
Model year ...

I know everyone is just speculating here, but the delays and unknown bugs are really valid concerns and making me just a little more cautious. If we're talking about potential MY18 dates, I'd soon as wait another year for the release of the mid engine c8, and just get over the fact that my 1 year old won't be riding around with daddy in the beast.

I understand that certain delays can sometimes accompany the release of new technology packaged with new models, but it ain't as if we're talking about silverados here where they'll have a gang of them sitting on the lots that you'll be able to choose from once those delays cease. This is a low production vehicle. Sure, they say they'll build as many as demand warrants, but how long will that take?? We all know how dodge had hc waiting times so long MY15 orders were converted into MY16. Dodge hyped up the hc similarly to how gm hyped up this car, ESPECIALLY with the a10. So to all those who say we shouldn't be angry about this and we should pipe down, I gotta disagree. Can we do anything about it outside of venting to each other? No. Is it a life changing event? No, but it's still very annoying and is forcing some folks to consider other options, be it the manual or another vehicle altogether.

[Heavymetal454]

Originally Posted by GoneBoy

I know everyone is just speculating here, but the delays and unknown bugs are really valid concerns and making me just a little more cautious. If we're talking about potential MY18 dates, I'd soon as wait another year for the release of the mid engine c8, and just get over the fact that my 1 year old won't be riding around with daddy in the beast.

I understand that certain delays can sometimes accompany the release of new technology packaged with new models, but it ain't as if we're talking about silverados here where they'll have a gang of them sitting on the lots that you'll be able to choose from once those delays cease. This is a low production vehicle. Sure, they say they'll build as many as demand warrants, but how long will that take?? We all know how dodge had hc waiting times so long MY15 orders were converted into MY16. Dodge hyped up the hc similarly to how gm hyped up this car, ESPECIALLY with the a10. So to all those who say we shouldn't be angry about this and we should pipe down, I gotta disagree. Can we do anything about it outside of venting to each other? No. Is it a life changing event? No, but it's still very annoying and is forcing some folks to consider other options, be it the manual or another vehicle altogether.

No argument here. I have more than one car to drive. I haven't shelled out anything more than a thousand at my local dealer which is completely refundable. I don't want to drive it in the winter or for that matter even if it rains. You are right. It's the annoyance factor. A10 Annoyance 10 if you want to call it that. This situation isn't unique. By all accounts it should be expected perhaps. People get annoyed not because of things like this but all of the things in life that come with disappointment. Call me cynical if you will but when most people get the surprise disappointment a lot of us tend to say, someone knew and kept it from us. I don't know about a lot of other people but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I would have preferred hearing something like this. We want to deliver the best product possible and we encountered some setbacks with XYZ. We are choosing to postpone the release in order to address that. We apologize but we are confidant when the car is available you will be pleased with what we came up with.

Mic drop.........

[newmoon]

Could Chevy be waiting to see if the Limp Mode / Overheating "Fix" planned for the 2017 Z06 actually solves the problem before they release the ZL1? Lets face it Chevy got a whole lot of negative press in regards to the Z06 which I am certain had an impact in sales, they may simply be trying to avoid this happening with the ZL1.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I'm sure that will go over well.

The Camaro team is very very proud of this car. I knew they all liked it from talking with them during the reveal in Nevada...but after last week....they are absolutely head over heels about the ZL1. And it's not just PR fluff, either...they really love it!

SO....with that said....how about we consider giving the benefit of the doubt before jumping down their throats as internet "experts" will tend to do...and drive one first. If it doesn't live up the claims, THEN lambast them...

...To do it prior to anyone actually getting into the drivers seat invites a foot into your mouth....


I had some really nice conversations with Adam Barry, and Matt Scrase (sp?), among others and learned some cool stuff I'll write down below in case someone missed it.

- The hood from the ZL1 cannot fit onto an SS seamlessly...due to the wider fenders and front clip.
- The fenders are wider not just to accommodate a bigger tire, but more importantly, to allow for wider air intakes for cooling.
- There are a ton of ducts, baffles, and chutes designed into the backside of the ZL1's front fascia to completely control and direct airflow. Therefore, a ZL1 front fascia cannot be swapped onto other models (even with the fenders) without all of those components to go with it.
- The front splitter is physically a separate piece from the front fascia...to allow for easier/cheaper replacement if someone curbs it...
- The Lower grill was re-evaluated for depth to eliminate excess drag and turbulence, to increase cooling efficiency...the original model was much deeper. Aftermarket grilles will likely be a detriment to cooling.
- The cover around the bumper bar has tuned, sculpted radii around each edge to maximize airflow and direct as much as possible around the bumper bar and into the radiator...it's not just "a plastic cover".
- They took the A10 and manual cars together everywhere they went...and they testing the cars on track in a myriad of environments including high heat...neither car ever exhibited a single instance of heat soak, either from the engine or the transmission.
- 0-60 mph in first gear alone for the manual transmission
- This ZL1's hood is a functional extractor...it's shape and location cause hot air to actually be sucked out of the engine compartment. And it's better at that job than either the last Z/28 or ZL1's hood vents.
- The reason the rear wing overhangs the body is because they were looking to balance front and rear downforce. They needed a bit more on the rear, so they extended it out to use more surface area.
- Several of the same people who worked on the previous ZL1 are working on this one.
- The car passes the same durability and quality tests that they put all their performance cars through.
- All of the fastest performance times were achieved with the automatic version.
- The A10 shifts as fast as they're claiming...all the time. Whether the car is under WOT conditions, or just tooling around town.

I'm sure there's more than I'm forgetting. Lots of questions were asked...so much cool.

I now know I'm ordering an automatic when the time comes.

I really hope people don't start trying to put ZL1 body panels and logos on their SS'. Also, I'm not really buying that they "needed" to do this to fit the larger wheels/tires. I'm running the exact same size now and they're sitting flush with the rear fender. I think they're trying to protect the cars uniqueness which is a great thing. I would pissed off if I bought a ZL1 and there were a bunch of pretenders all over the roads.

I'll be honest with you guys, I'm very skeptical about this A10. Not so much about it's performance, but more so about its reliability. Saying that it passes all of their existing durability tests does nothing but cast more doubt on this point. If I were getting ready to order this car I would seriously think long and hard about this. I did a lot of researching before my ordering my SS and decided on an M6 without having driven a manual transmission in 20 years and now they're going to add another level of complexity to it??? Sorry, but nothing that they say would make me feel better as an early adopter based on their track record with early production new models. It took them 2 years to get it right on their flagship performance car, the Corvette.

Performance wise, I have no doubts that it "shifts" fast. What I'd want to see is how fast the paddles respond to my input, and if I can stay in the gear of my choosing while coasting without the car shifting for me.

[GoneBoy]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I'll be honest with you guys, I'm very skeptical about this A10. Not so much about it's performance, but more so about its reliability. Saying that it passes all of their existing durability tests does nothing but cast more doubt on this point. If I were getting ready to order this car I would seriously think long and hard about this.e.

No lie, I've been thinking about this exact point over the last few days. You have stock reliability questions, and then you simply can't ignore the uncertain transmission reliability for those of us who plan on adding aftermarket power down the road. Because no one has any experience with it, the local tuner I planned on taking mine to obviously doesn't know how much power the torque converter will be able to handle consistently for daily driving, not to mention how it would respond to track days.

I'm not trying to contribute these threads devolving into 'A10 bashing' rants because all could end up being well with the A10. But these are some of the things that I know I've had to take into consideration if I were to take that A10 leap of faith.

[LesBaer]

Originally Posted by GoneBoy

No lie, I've been thinking about this exact point over the last few days. You have stock reliability questions, and then you simply can't ignore the uncertain transmission reliability for those of us who plan on adding aftermarket power down the road. Because no one has any experience with it, the local tuner I planned on taking mine to obviously doesn't know how much power the torque converter will be able to handle consistently for daily driving, not to mention how it would respond to track days.

I'm not trying to contribute these threads devolving into 'A10 bashing' rants because all could end up being well with the A10. But these are some of the things that I know I've had to take into consideration if I were to take that A10 leap of faith.

To your other point about adding power, don't forget that no one has figured out how to crack the 2017 SS model's encryption (yet). That's another big unknown that I'd think about before ordering. The whole 3.5 second thing can be remedied by simply adding headers with high flow cats. If I could hit 3.5 on my car when it was at 6psi and on the stock wheels, suspension and tires, anyone buying a ZL1 with a manual should be able to with just headers and high flow cats. Whether or not you'll be able to tune it is another story...

[67Builder]

"SO....with that said....how about we consider giving the benefit of the doubt before jumping down their throats as internet "experts" will tend to do...and drive one first. If it doesn't live up the claims, THEN lambast them..."

The problem with logic like this is that in order to drive one the way I'd consider a good test. I'd have to buy the thing first. If my local dealer gets one in stock, do you think they'd mind me running up to Watkins Glen for a "test drive"?
You may be willing to buy a car while there are still questions about it (questions they DO know the answers to but won't share), but I am just a bit put off by their tactics and intentional deflection and outright propaganda. If you want me to drop 65k+ on a car, come correct with the details.
That's all I'm asking, and it's not too much to ask.

Would you buy anything from anyone being so intentionally deceptive?
I'd like to sell my house. Wonder if I can just tell the buyers I know the answer to their questions about my property. But I won't answer them. They should just buy it because I say it's an amazing home, and come on... I'm a great guy. I wouldn't lie to them.

That's my final rant on the subject. Sorry for the jack.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

Performance wise, I have no doubts that it "shifts" fast. What I'd want to see is how fast the paddles respond to my input, and if I can stay in the gear of my choosing while coasting without the car shifting for me.

Immediate response time, and yes - it'll hold gear for your entire trip, if you'd like.

Originally Posted by 67Builder

"SO....with that said....how about we consider giving the benefit of the doubt before jumping down their throats as internet "experts" will tend to do...and drive one first. If it doesn't live up the claims, THEN lambast them..."

The problem with logic like this is that in order to drive one the way I'd consider a good test. I'd have to buy the thing first. If my local dealer gets one in stock, do you think they'd mind me running up to Watkins Glen for a "test drive"?

No, they wouldn't. Which is why you have magazines and early adopters on the forum who purchase one. My comment was not meant to be taken literally by every individual, because the fact of the matter is, at this price point, and performance level...test-drives will be few and far between. Just like the Stingray, Z06, past ZL1, past Z/28, etc...

If there are any issues, or falsehood with regards to the cars capability...they will come to light without much effort, just like the Z06 had happen.

Pay close attention to these sources, and you'll have all the real-world experience you could want, short of test driving the car on a track, yourself.

Originally Posted by 67Builder

You may be willing to buy a car while there are still questions about it (questions they DO know the answers to but won't share), but I am just a bit put off by their tactics and intentional deflection and outright propaganda. If you want me to drop 65k+ on a car, come correct with the details.

That's all I'm asking, and it's not too much to ask.

I ordered my last ZL1 literally the day that ordering opened up. I ended up with the 214th ZL1 ever built. It was a phenomenal car. I never drove it prior to ordering...in fact, when I took delivery the window sticker wasn't even ready! But it was a great car, and I miss it. I would do it again in a heartbeat...and the same people who worked on that car, are working on the new one. With higher expectations and standards than ever before.

I regret that I have to wait until fall of next year to purchase one, in any event...so all the information will be out by then...However, if I could, I'd order one today. Silver w/ Auto, please!

What details would you like to know? You keep throwing around words like "propaganda", "deception", and "deflection".

It sounds to me like you're simply looking for something to be upset about.

Originally Posted by 67Builder

Would you buy anything from anyone being so intentionally deceptive?
I'd like to sell my house. Wonder if I can just tell the buyers I know the answer to their questions about my property. But I won't answer them. They should just buy it because I say it's an amazing home, and come on... I'm a great guy. I wouldn't lie to them.

That's not at all the same thing. But nice try...

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Immediate response time, and yes - it'll hold gear for your entire trip, if you'd like.



No, they wouldn't. Which is why you have magazines and early adopters on the forum who purchase one. My comment was not meant to be taken literally by every individual, because the fact of the matter is, at this price point, and performance level...test-drives will be few and far between. Just like the Stingray, Z06, past ZL1, past Z/28, etc...

If there are any issues, or falsehood with regards to the cars capability...they will come to light without much effort, just like the Z06 had happen.

I seem to remember a bunch of people raving about the z06 namely GM engineers and car mags. Then a bunch of people ran out and dropped big bucks only to get 3 laps in at VIR before their supercar was getting passed by a kid in a civic (I watched that happen live). The problem is that they (GM) know the answers to the questions being asked right now. They are just unwilling to share the answers. It's not just me who is having doubts, and some simple answers would go a long way to alleviating said doubts.

Pay close attention to these sources, and you'll have all the real-world experience you could want, short of test driving the car on a track, yourself.



I ordered my last ZL1 literally the day that ordering opened up. I ended up with the 214th ZL1 ever built. It was a phenomenal car. I never drove it prior to ordering...in fact, when I took delivery the window sticker wasn't even ready! But it was a great car, and I miss it. I would do it again in a heartbeat...and the same people who worked on that car, are working on the new one. With higher expectations and standards than ever before.

When the last ZL1 dropped, were there any interim availability parts that were supposed to be the best part of the car that you missed out on? This isn't the same rodeo as last time. If this car was coming out as the last ZL1, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I regret that I have to wait until fall of next year to purchase one, in any event...so all the information will be out by then...However, if I could, I'd order one today. Silver w/ Auto, please!

What details would you like to know? You keep throwing around words like "propaganda", "deception", and "deflection".

It sounds to me like you're simply looking for something to be upset about.

On the contrary, I'm looking for something to be happy about. I'm just getting no joy from GM's responses.

That's not at all the same thing. But nice try...

It is the same thing. It's a great transmission! Trust us!

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

It is the same thing. It's a great transmission! Trust us!

I had the first allocation at my dealer for a 12. Because of a QC issue (for which they never said what the problem was) I didn't get a 12 but got one of the first 13's. We had things constrained also, the CF insert, CRT paint the nav feature on my link and the vert! I was expecting to get my car in April of that year and did not get it until August. Yes, It was frustrating but the minute I drove off the lot with the car I forgot all about it and the permagrin took over.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

It is the same thing. It's a great transmission! Trust us!

I'm sorry...what is it you want?

What do you want to know? I keep reading about all your "questions", and answers that they know but won't tell...yet nothing specific.

And why do you feel so strongly that you're being lied to, deceived, or otherwise wronged?

Why does any of what's going on strike you as somehow out of the ordinary from every other vehicle that's been rolled out?

And finally...if they choose not to reveal a certain bit of information...when will you accept that as their prerogative and you just need to be patient?

[Hypertrophy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I'm sure that will go over well.

The Camaro team is very very proud of this car. I knew they all liked it from talking with them during the reveal in Nevada...but after last week....they are absolutely head over heels about the ZL1. And it's not just PR fluff, either...they really love it!

SO....with that said....how about we consider giving the benefit of the doubt before jumping down their throats as internet "experts" will tend to do...and drive one first. If it doesn't live up the claims, THEN lambast them...

...To do it prior to anyone actually getting into the drivers seat invites a foot into your mouth....


I had some really nice conversations with Adam Barry, and Matt Scrase (sp?), among others and learned some cool stuff I'll write down below in case someone missed it.

- The hood from the ZL1 cannot fit onto an SS seamlessly...due to the wider fenders and front clip.
- The fenders are wider not just to accommodate a bigger tire, but more importantly, to allow for wider air intakes for cooling.
- There are a ton of ducts, baffles, and chutes designed into the backside of the ZL1's front fascia to completely control and direct airflow. Therefore, a ZL1 front fascia cannot be swapped onto other models (even with the fenders) without all of those components to go with it.
- The front splitter is physically a separate piece from the front fascia...to allow for easier/cheaper replacement if someone curbs it...
- The Lower grill was re-evaluated for depth to eliminate excess drag and turbulence, to increase cooling efficiency...the original model was much deeper. Aftermarket grilles will likely be a detriment to cooling.
- The cover around the bumper bar has tuned, sculpted radii around each edge to maximize airflow and direct as much as possible around the bumper bar and into the radiator...it's not just "a plastic cover".
- They took the A10 and manual cars together everywhere they went...and they testing the cars on track in a myriad of environments including high heat...neither car ever exhibited a single instance of heat soak, either from the engine or the transmission.
- 0-60 mph in first gear alone for the manual transmission
- This ZL1's hood is a functional extractor...it's shape and location cause hot air to actually be sucked out of the engine compartment. And it's better at that job than either the last Z/28 or ZL1's hood vents.
- The reason the rear wing overhangs the body is because they were looking to balance front and rear downforce. They needed a bit more on the rear, so they extended it out to use more surface area.
- Several of the same people who worked on the previous ZL1 are working on this one.
- The car passes the same durability and quality tests that they put all their performance cars through.
- All of the fastest performance times were achieved with the automatic version.
- The A10 shifts as fast as they're claiming...all the time. Whether the car is under WOT conditions, or just tooling around town.

I'm sure there's more than I'm forgetting. Lots of questions were asked...so much cool.

I now know I'm ordering an automatic when the time comes.

Thanks for sharing this Mr. W. Always appreciate what you bring to the forum.

[67Builder]

Nobody is touting the CF dash insert as the best thing about the new one. Same for the colors and top selection.
When the main thing they are touting isn't available at launch for some reason or another. It's concerning.
I wish they would just come out and say it's a parts availability issue. That's understandable. Why wouldn't a brand new tranny have some parts hiccups? It's the silence on the reason for the unavailability that's a problem. If it's not going to be available for some unknown time frame (they never did say when it would actually be available) for some other reason. Well, like i said, the silence is concerning.

I'm still planning on writing a check as soon as they actually do become available. And I'm hoping by that time that any and all kinks are worked out.
But if like the last z06 buyer, I buy a car that has issues the first time it goes to the track for a problem they knew about (or should have known about via testing). Shame on GM.
That's all I'm saying.

[bluHawk141]

Originally Posted by LesBaer

I'll be honest with you guys, I'm very skeptical about this A10. Not so much about it's performance, but more so about its reliability. Saying that it passes all of their existing durability tests does nothing but cast more doubt on this point. If I were getting ready to order this car I would seriously think long and hard about this. I did a lot of researching before my ordering my SS and decided on an M6 without having driven a manual transmission in 20 years and now they're going to add another level of complexity to it??? Sorry, but nothing that they say would make me feel better as an early adopter based on their track record with early production new models. It took them 2 years to get it right on their flagship performance car, the Corvette.

Performance wise, I have no doubts that it "shifts" fast. What I'd want to see is how fast the paddles respond to my input, and if I can stay in the gear of my choosing while coasting without the car shifting for me.

I'm with you, actually in 2 years they haven't got the issues fixed for sure with the a8. 2016s are still getting the torque converter shudder. I have the a8 in my 2015 Sierra with the shudder along with the missing check valve that you can't start the engine and drop it into gear immediately. So I start and wait 10 seconds. Not the end of the world, but there is 2 issues with trans. But it's under warranty and I'll bring it in soon, when I think they won't have another patch. I played the game with the dealer, and they did what GM said to do, reflash the tcm. That made the shudder a lil less noticeable, but you're not going to program away a mechanical issue. So regards to the A10, know I have a warranty behind it and no immediate plans for modifications. So I'll roll the dice and see what happens, if I can an A10 for next spring.