[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Flop?

GM almost went away. Cadillac, once the universal standard of excellence became a badge engineered also ran. The ALPHA chassis, in particular the V series and Z series have earned the respect of automotive analysts world wide. They will keep building best in class automobiles and in time, sales will follow. It speaks volumes that GM is doing so well in China.

Rome wasn't built in a day. It will take Cadillac several generations of excellent cars to win back customers and market share. They are making money, turning record profits and that is the bottom line.

Only thing I will argue here with you Pete is that yes GM is doing insane in China, but the alpha is a extremely small % of that. IIRC they have a specific version of the ATS sold in China and that is the only Alpha car sold there.

EDIT: If this site is accurate the ATS-L made up 32% of Cadillac sales so I guess its a good chunk but still seems like the driving force is other vehicles not on Alpha

http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-data/cadillac/

[BradfordCamaro]

Originally Posted by Childs Play

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[2010REDSS]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

GM sells about 10 million cars per year
They sell about 90,000 alpha chassis

So you go ahead and post the finacial status of the entire company as a rebuttal to me saying that the alpha chassis is a flop, which represents less than 1% of the total vehicle sales. Sound logic

Facts are stubborn

Guy,

And your "facts" to support your perception that the Alpha chassis is a "huge flop" are???

Oh, I forgot....you "rented a Camaro for 4 days" once.

In 2017 US Sales of the Alpha Chassis models represented 4.11% of the total sales of Chevrolet and Cadillac models. Considering how much of Chevy/Caddy sales are trucks and SUVs, not bad.

I'm not sure that either my substantiated facts, or your totally made up facts, regarding sales is the point on whether the Alpha Chassis is a success. I just take issue when someone pulls numbers directly from their rectum and uses them to make a statement of fact. I have owned 3rd, 4th, 5th and now 6th Gen Camaros and the Alpha Chassis is spectacular.

Oddly, I have no problem with you posting stuff like:

"Also was blasting some back roads in VT in the cts, has to be one of the coolest roads in the country, and came across a c5 vette who was a crazy good driver. We were like seriously racing, tires screeching and all, I was right behind him and I barely trying and could have passed him with the worlds worst motor trans combo, the 3.6 v6, with the 8speed. (8 speed in the cts is nothing like the 8l90 in the SS)"

Have at that stuff all you like. Just don't bring that Kool-Aid to a grown man's party.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Only thing I will argue here with you Pete is that yes GM is doing insane in China, but the alpha is a extremely small % of that. IIRC they have a specific version of the ATS sold in China and that is the only Alpha car sold there.

EDIT: If this site is accurate the ATS-L made up 32% of Cadillac sales so I guess its a good chunk but still seems like the driving force is other vehicles not on Alpha

http://carsalesbase.com/china-car-sales-data/cadillac/

Alpha is not the driving force behind GM. ALPHA is a platform that is doing well for GM and provides enthusiasts like us with some great automobiles.

[90503]

I keep hearing how well Cadillacs are selling in China. But not selling well at all in the U.S.

Are Cadillacs exported to China from the U.S.? If so, that is good news....If the Alpha Cadillacs are not exported to China from the U.S.A., why should we care how well they sell in China?

[2010REDSS]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Alpha is not the driving force behind GM. ALPHA is a platform that is doing well for GM and provides enthusiasts like us with some great automobiles.

+1

How far we have come as Camaro enthusiasts is simply amazing. I can put some simple mods (primarily safety) on an otherwise bone stock Camaro ZL1 1LE and run with Porsche GT3's / any thing Bimmer / Vettes / anything Mustang - on any track. All day long.

Fine times we live in right now as car guys and girls.

Now let's talk about the next (possible?) Z/28!

[whiteboyblues2001]

So, do you guys think there will be a Z/28 announcement with the refresh announcement like they did with Gen5?

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

So, do you guys think there will be a Z/28 announcement with the refresh announcement like they did with Gen5?

I’m guessing no.

Without a new Corvette, there is no new engine. Without the new engine, there is no Z/28.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Alpha is not the driving force behind GM. ALPHA is a platform that is doing well for GM and provides enthusiasts like us with some great automobiles.

Dude your posts are really confusing me lol. In 1 post your talking about volume of all 3 alpha cars being something Ford only dreams of being able to do. I point out the volume isn't much different(US Volume) then you bring China into it

Originally Posted by JusticePete

How many Mustangs sold in China compared to Cadillacs?

As seen here ^

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Flop?

GM almost went away. Cadillac, once the universal standard of excellence became a badge engineered also ran. The ALPHA chassis, in particular the V series and Z series have earned the respect of automotive analysts world wide. They will keep building best in class automobiles and in time, sales will follow. It speaks volumes that GM is doing so well in China.
.

Here I know your talking about how good alpha is, and again bring up how well GM is doing in China while this whole discussion is about the Alpha cars almost like Alpha is the reason they are doing so well in china, but then you say this

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Alpha is not the driving force behind GM. ALPHA is a platform that is doing well for GM and provides enthusiasts like us with some great automobiles.

That it is not Alpha that is the reason GM is doing so good in china so which is it lol.

Originally Posted by 90503

I keep hearing how well Cadillacs are selling in China. But not selling well at all in the U.S.

Are Cadillacs exported to China from the U.S.? If so, that is good news....If the Alpha Cadillacs are not exported to China from the U.S.A., why should we care how well they sell in China?

If I read it correctly the sole Alpha based Cadillac in China, the ATS-L is built there in China

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Dude your posts are really confusing me lol. In 1 post your talking about volume of all 3 alpha cars being something Ford only dreams of being able to do. I point out the volume isn't much different(US Volume) then you bring China into it



As seen here ^



Here I know your talking about how good alpha is, and again bring up how well GM is doing in China while this whole discussion is about the Alpha cars almost like Alpha is the reason they are doing so well in china, but then you say this



That it is not Alpha that is the reason GM is doing so good in china so which is it lol.



If I read it correctly the sole Alpha based Cadillac in China, the ATS-L is built there in China

You wrote that the ALPHA platform is a flop.

Worldwide sales volume is an important measure of success for any automotive platform.

GM sold over 170,000 vehicles in China last year, 5 or 6,000 were ALPHA plus another 20 some odd thousand ALPHA based cars in Europe. The average transaction price is higher for a Camaro than a Mustang with an even greater disparity between a Mustang and a Cadillac. Ford is using fleet sales in the same way GM did in the the bad old days to boost volume of the Mustang as well as other platforms. With an average transaction price that is a minimum of $5,000 per vehicle higher than Mustang he ALPHA platform is not a flop.

[GuywithL86]

Originally Posted by 2010REDSS

Guy,

And your "facts" to support your perception that the Alpha chassis is a "huge flop" are???

Oh, I forgot....you "rented a Camaro for 4 days" once.

In 2017 US Sales of the Alpha Chassis models represented 4.11% of the total sales of Chevrolet and Cadillac models. Considering how much of Chevy/Caddy sales are trucks and SUVs, not bad.

I'm not sure that either my substantiated facts, or your totally made up facts, regarding sales is the point on whether the Alpha Chassis is a success. I just take issue when someone pulls numbers directly from their rectum and uses them to make a statement of fact. I have owned 3rd, 4th, 5th and now 6th Gen Camaros and the Alpha Chassis is spectacular.

Oddly, I have no problem with you posting stuff like:

"Also was blasting some back roads in VT in the cts, has to be one of the coolest roads in the country, and came across a c5 vette who was a crazy good driver. We were like seriously racing, tires screeching and all, I was right behind him and I barely trying and could have passed him with the worlds worst motor trans combo, the 3.6 v6, with the 8speed. (8 speed in the cts is nothing like the 8l90 in the SS)"

Have at that stuff all you like. Just don't bring that Kool-Aid to a grown man's party.

Look in the mirror, you are a fanboy

I called it a flop, I also called it the best high production chassis ever made.

You’re defending the alpha chassis by calling out my lack of experience behind the wheel, and pointing out your extensive experience behind the wheel. How does that validate your point whatsoever that the alpha chassis is not a financial flop?

You are jumping on me because I’m saying the chassis is great but sales are not.

All you see is... “omg something negative about alpha chassis, he must be wrong, let me post some illogical drivel about how wrong he is.”

[2010REDSS]

Originally Posted by GuywithL86

Look in the mirror, you are a fanboy

I called it a flop, I also called it the best high production chassis ever made.

You’re defending the alpha chassis by calling out my lack of experience behind the wheel, and pointing out your extensive experience behind the wheel. How does that validate your point whatsoever that the alpha chassis is not a financial flop?

You are jumping on me because I’m saying the chassis is great but sales are not.

All you see is... “omg something negative about alpha chassis, he must be wrong, let me post some illogical drivel about how wrong he is.”

Tastes like grape Kool-Aid.

And no....I'm jumping on you because you are wrong.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

You wrote that the ALPHA platform is a flop.

Worldwide sales volume is an important measure of success for any automotive platform.

GM sold over 170,000 vehicles in China last year, 5 or 6,000 were ALPHA plus another 20 some odd thousand ALPHA based cars in Europe. The average transaction price is higher for a Camaro than a Mustang with an even greater disparity between a Mustang and a Cadillac. Ford is using fleet sales in the same way GM did in the the bad old days to boost volume of the Mustang as well as other platforms. With an average transaction price that is a minimum of $5,000 per vehicle higher than Mustang he ALPHA platform is not a flop.

Show me where I said Alpha was a flop. I said nothing of the sort, I think you have me mixed up with someone else. All I said was US volume there was not huge gap, YOU brought China into it comparing Cadillac Sales to Mustang Sales, which brought the conversation of volume up.

And Everyone loves to keep throwing ATP around. Yeah it's great to see the cars are selling for higher, but if we don't know the profit being made is it that great a unit of measure?

Example
Product A ATP is $1200 but average profit $200
Product B ATP is $800 but average profit $300

Which one is making more profit? It's B but in the example of the cars we don't know how much profit is being made. Now I will agree with the general consensus here that Alpha is probably more profitable S550.

And this all boils back down to the original post you made where you made it sound like Alpha Volume was something the S550 would never be in reach off.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

I think you will get the same response about the 6th Gen. The ALPHA underpinnings are on the ATS, CTS and Camaro. While the sales numbers are not huge for any one model, the three together are profitable, so profitable a company like Ford only dreams about selling the chassis the Mustang is on in those numbers.

Originally Posted by shaffe

If we are just talking straight numbers


2017

Mustang 81866
Camaro 67940
CTS 10344
ATS 13100

The Alpha trio total volume was 9518 cars more than the S550, that's not a huge gap, in 2016 it was even less and same for 15.

Now profit is something no one knows so if you want to argue the Alpha is more profitable I would love to see the profit each makes on each model lol

Originally Posted by JusticePete

How many Mustangs sold in China compared to Cadillacs?

Either way it's all in good fun sir

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I’m guessing no.

Without a new Corvette, there is no new engine. Without the new engine, there is no Z/28.

There is a lot of talk out there, that makes me think there is a Z/28 or Z28 coming, if not it will be the first Gen Camaro with out a Z28 in the line up.