[Norm Peterson]

I actually lengthened the throw on my car's aftermarket shifter to be a little longer than stock. Makes very little difference in road course lap times at my level (decent intermediate?), and I don't drag-race at all. But it shifts so much nicer all the time . . . I'd do the same sort of mod again for any car's "short-throw" shifter.





Norm

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I actually lengthened the throw on my car's aftermarket shifter to be a little longer than stock. Makes very little difference in road course lap times at my level (decent intermediate?), and I don't drag-race at all. But it shifts so much nicer all the time . . . I'd do the same sort of mod again for any car's "short-throw" shifter.





Norm

Looks wonky, haha, but if it works!

I would just prefer a slightly shorter throw that factory. It's OK and the 1LE isn't much of an improvement - not enough to warrant the cost and time to change to it.

[HurstPerformance]

Originally Posted by chrest

prototype?!

That is correct, we have shipped out a prototype Billet/Plus shifter that allows reuse of the OEM shift knob. We should have an update soon!

Originally Posted by Nicul15

Any chance we will see the ability to switch between stock and a ball?

Due to the way that we manufacture these shifters we would not be able to offer an interchangeable shift stick to switch between the OEM knob and our Classic Ball design.

Originally Posted by Atomic Ed

I know I'm late to the party, but I like stealth setups. Closer to the stock look the better. At least let me use the factory knob.

We will have an update for you in the very near future!

Originally Posted by Captslow

I have had the pistol grip hurst short throw on for about a year now and it has been one of my favorite mods. Really makes a big difference.

We are very happy to hear that you are enjoying the setup!

Originally Posted by Mountain

Actually, I think 40% is too much of a reduction. I feel like that’s asking a lot from the synchros, mainly at high RPM. Have you guys experimented with something 20-25% in reductions?

We had experimented with a variety of designs during the R&D process of this shifter and were very satisfied with the performance of the shifter at the 40% reduction mark. We have the Billet/Plus shifter installed in our own Camaro SS and have logged thousands of miles without any issues.

Originally Posted by Dubchitts

It doesn't affect the syncros.

This is correct, the reduced throw of a shifter does not affect the synchros of the vehicle.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Indirectly it probably does, if your hand speed remains the same and the revs aren't matched any closer. Increased 'notchiness' probably isn't a good thing for them.

After installing any aftermarket shifter that reduces shift throw into any vehicle, some changes in driving style may be needed to adjust to the new performance characteristics. While issues could arise due to improper clutch engagement and rev-matching techniques, a driver with manual transmission experience should have no issues driving their vehicle with this shifter. As mentioned earlier, we have had our Billet/Plus shifter installed in our very own 6th Gen Camaro SS and have not had any issues with grinding, excessive "notchiness", or synchro issues with it installed. If you have any additional questions about this shifter feel free to give us a call at 707-544-4761 and we will be more than happy to answer them for you.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Looks wonky, haha, but if it works!

The more complete story is that I'm not the kind of enthusiast who drag races or bangs gears and chirps tires coming off every traffic light the instant it goes green. I'm really a traditional sports car guy with a desire for a bit more power than that usually implies.

It probably matters that since about 1973, all of our family sedans have been MT cars, and of course shift action in a FWD or AWD car tends to be 'light' unless something is actually bent or broken. So I probably notice notchiness more than most ponycar owners and don't tolerate it nearly as much (she wouldn't tolerate it at all any more).

One thing I wasn't expecting (but perhaps should have) was that getting the shift knob closer to the steering wheel does seem to make for an easier reach when your right hand is constantly going back and forth between the shift lever and the steering wheel out on a road course . . . or in traffic that refuses to maintain a constant enough speed to comfortably leave a MT in one gear.


Side note to HurstPerf . . . There's been at least one Hurst shifter in my past, that first operated a T10 (later donating its lever to the TR3550 that eventually replaced the T10).



Norm

[sschons74]

I love my Hurst in mine. 1st and only mod, so far. Love the 40% reduction. Question to Hurst I would be interested if you guys are just making a separate post that can be switched out from our threaded one to the stock knob post, or have you changed more than that?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Dubchitts

It doesn't affect the syncros.

Ford (with Tremec) learned otherwise. And GM says...

Bulletin #17-NA-101 - (April 4, 2017)
Subject: High Shift Effort

"Vehicles equipped with the M13 or MM6 and 1LE package (RPO A1X with M13 or A1Y with MM6) are equipped with a short throw shifter assembly that may exhibit higher shift efforts than non 1LE's.

This may be more evident at cold temperatures until the transmission and vehicle have reached operating temperature."

Read between the lines.

This isn't to say Hurst's shifter is going to break the synchos or any. But reducing the throw changes how well the synchos can work...

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Ford (with Tremec) learned otherwise. And GM says...

Bulletin #17-NA-101 - (April 4, 2017)
Subject: High Shift Effort

"Vehicles equipped with the M13 or MM6 and 1LE package (RPO A1X with M13 or A1Y with MM6) are equipped with a short throw shifter assembly that may exhibit higher shift efforts than non 1LE's.

This may be more evident at cold temperatures until the transmission and vehicle have reached operating temperature."

Read between the lines.

This isn't to say Hurst's shifter is going to break the synchos or any. But reducing the throw changes how well the synchos can work...

That bulletin has nothing to do with synchro wear. It's simply stating that with the reduced throw, the shift effort has increased. The fulcrum point on the lever is changing, therefor more force is needed.

[Norm Peterson]

More force required at the knob translates (more or less) to faster movement of the synchro rings. Faster wear rates and an increased likelihood of "beating the synchros" can be expected. It won't be an overnight thing unless you grind a gear in truly epic fashion and break off a few bits, just shorter life.


Norm

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

More force required at the knob translates (more or less) to faster movement of the synchro rings. Faster wear rates and an increased likelihood of "beating the synchros" can be expected. It won't be an overnight thing unless you grind a gear in truly epic fashion and break off a few bits, just shorter life.


Norm

Norm,
The statement above is not really accurate. The shifter assembly is simply a lever. By raising the fulcrum point or reducing the shaft length above the fulcrum point, the mechanical advantage will be reduced and force at the knob will increased to get the same level of force at the linkage (which connects to the transmission's shift lever shaft).

The synchros would be most directly impacted by the force acting on the linkage and how quickly it's moving.

Does that make sense?

[6spdhyperblue]

IMO the thing Ive seen kill syncros quicker is sloppy shifter compared to a tight accurate shifter that is a little faster.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

Norm,
The statement above is not really accurate. The shifter assembly is simply a lever. By raising the fulcrum point or reducing the shaft length above the fulcrum point, the mechanical advantage will be reduced and force at the knob will increased to get the same level of force at the linkage (which connects to the transmission's shift lever shaft).

The synchros would be most directly impacted by the force acting on the linkage and how quickly it's moving.

Does that make sense?

How quickly it's moving is precisely my point.

While the reduced mechanical advantage works against you for the force required at the shift knob, it works to increase the speed of linkage movement relative to shift knob speed. Can't have one without the other. Granted, I'm assuming that you're maintaining about the same shift knob speed, but I think that's a fair bet especially when you're hurrying a shift and pulling harder on the lever.


Norm

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

How quickly it's moving is precisely my point.

While the reduced mechanical advantage works against you for the force required at the shift knob, it works to increase the speed of linkage movement relative to shift knob speed. Can't have one without the other. Granted, I'm assuming that you're maintaining about the same shift knob speed, but I think that's a fair bet especially when you're hurrying a shift and pulling harder on the lever.


Norm

Right. vtirocz's statements are definitely sound, but then there is the speed element. And the you also have to consider the synchronizer as not being just this friction thing, but this friction and pattern matching thing. Not only do you have to speed match the input and output (engine RPM vs. vehicle speed) speed between two rotating parts, but you have to do so in a manner that allows the parts of the assembly to index into place well. We're talking timing, force and coefficient of friction here. It can't be just one or the other; or some but not all elements. The synchronizers are designed to a certain coefficient of friction, to complete a speed-matching and part indexing job within a certain amount of time. When you change that amount of time, you are simply changing the operating parameters that the synchronizer part was designed for. Yes?

If you have a manual trans, try playing with your shifting speed, for a given gear and vehicle speed. Shift REAL slow. What happens? The shift is notchier and you may even get some grinding (you will at least feel the synchro assembly clash into the dog teeth). Shift REAL fast. What happens? The shift is notchier and you most likely will get grinding or a couple crunches from the clash of the dog teeth engagement. There is a range in speed where these things work properly. Newer synchro designs tend to be more finicky than the older. A lot is centered around the dog teeth design. The older designs that use large, less numerous dog teeth were more notchy in general operation, but you could get away with a lot more abuse. The newer designs used today, with smaller and more numerous dog teeth, are smoother in general operation, but have less tolerance to abuse. So, having to match a lot of small teeth vs. a smaller amount of bigger teeth.

Again, I'm not saying Hurst is operating outside the synchronizer's window. I don't know. I'm not involved in/have investigated into the Camaro's particular transmission parts to that level. But, my stance is 40% is a significant jump away from factory and I don't know what the longer-term effects are of that, being as I don't just drive my car A-B, or only go to a track (whatever type) as a onezie, twozie thing. I used it to it's intent as a sports car...

[Norm Peterson]

Mountain - I wonder if anybody has tried to slick-shift these newer transmissions . . . and they lived.


Norm

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Mountain - I wonder if anybody has tried to slick-shift these newer transmissions . . . and they lived.


Norm

Norm, I'm not familiar with "slick-shift". I did a quick search on it and I just find LR Defender (basically) short-shifters.