[kmcd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Anything to qualify that statement?

O.K., I guess "crap" is in the eye of the beholder. There's one thing for sure, though. It ain't gonna' be a muscle car with a 4-banger in it. If it whines instead of rumbles, it ain't a muscle car. I don't care if it makes 600 RWHP and trips a 12-second quarter. It may be a rocket, but it's not a muscle car.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by kmcd

O.K., I guess "crap" is in the eye of the beholder. There's one thing for sure, though. It ain't gonna' be a muscle car with a 4-banger in it. If it whines instead of rumbles, it ain't a muscle car. I don't care if it makes 600 RWHP and trips a 12-second quarter. It may be a rocket, but it's not a muscle car.

Fair enough. I think I'd agree with you. I don't see that as a bad thing, though...maybe that's where our opinions differ.

This is where I'm coming from:

Some don't think the Camaro is a muscle car at all. Others call it a sports coupe. And GM markets it as the "sports car of the 21st century". So who's right? And what defines any of these things? Some may rest easy pretending the Camaro SS is the only Camaro in existence...but that's not all that this car is about; not since the very beginning...

Adding a 4 cylinder to the lineup would not change the original formula of offering different levels of affordable performance. If the Camaro SS, or the ZL1 is considered a muscle car - that's fine...but they're only part of the overall "CAMARO" package.

And to throw a wrench in the gears: technology is changing things, making the number of cylinders less and less important towards achieving a performance goal....

[kmcd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Generally speaking, a lot of these preconceptions and strangely backwards beliefs are going to be the single largest hurdle the Camaro will have to overcome moving forward. But -- if we want it to survive, it's going to have to adapt to its environment. That doesn't have to be a bad thing...just 'different'.

Dare I say it....I'm sure there's a possibility of a performance-hybrid Camaro by the end of the decade.....

I guess that's where we're headed as long as the "nanny-staters" are in control. Personally, I'd rather they just let the Camaro die with the fifth generation if the sixth generation is going to soil the legacy.

You may call it backwards, but that's just the way I feel about it. My first car was a '68 Camaro, and I hate to see it devolve into a "hybrid." Go ahead and build your 4-banger, but please show a little respect and call it something else because it's definitely not a Camaro.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by kmcd

I guess that's where we're headed as long as the "nanny-staters" are in control. Personally, I'd rather they just let the Camaro die with the fifth generation if the sixth generation is going to soil the legacy.

You may call it backwards, but that's just the way I feel about it. My first car was a '68 Camaro, and I hate to see it devolve into a "hybrid." Go ahead and build your 4-banger, but please show a little respect and call it something else because it's definitely not a Camaro.

That's unfortunate. :(

Though, I gotta say...you seem to be under the assumption that a 4-cylinder offering would be the only Camaro model. Or am I reading that wrong?

[kmcd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

That's unfortunate. :(

Though, I gotta say...you seem to be under the assumption that a 4-cylinder offering would be the only Camaro model. Or am I reading that wrong?

I know, and I don't mean to sound bitter. I guess I'm just an old-school muslce-car guy watching the end of a golden era.

It's just sad to watch from a purist vantage point.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by kmcd

I know, and I don't mean to sound bitter. I guess I'm just an old-school muslce-car guy watching the end of a golden era.

It's just sad to watch from a purist vantage point.

Well...why? I mean...even though there MIGHT (remember, nothing's been confirmed so this is no more than conjecture) be a 4 cyllinder model...there'll also be a potent V6, and most certainly a fire-breathing V8. Is it so bad to diversify?

That said...the 'golden era' of cheap high-performance is probably coming to a close...I'd agree with that.

[kmcd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Is it so bad to diversify?

Not necessarily. That is, unless diversification is just a euphemistic description of declining standards.

Good grief. Now I sound like my father.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by kmcd

Not necessarily. That is, unless diversification is just a euphemistic description of declining standards.

Not at all. That's the difference between today and the 70s. They had no choice but to choke off performance back then...there was no other alternative to achieve higher fuel economy and lower emissions.

As I said earlier, today's technology has rendered the value of the number of cylinders nearly obsolete. This hypothetical 4 cylinder Camaro would have all, if not more performance and efficiency than today's 6 cylinder model.

They can't lower their goals or standards - that's not how you stay relevant in this industry. At the VERY worst...they'd have to plateau certain aspects of a vehicle in the short term to improve others. But nothing would be "lost".

[kmcd]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

They can't lower their goals or standards - that's not how you stay relevant in this industry. At the VERY worst...they'd have to plateau certain aspects of a vehicle in the short term to improve others. But nothing would be "lost".

Oh well. I'd rather fly the P-51 than the F-22, so I guess I was just born about 40 years too late.

To each his own.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by kmcd

Oh well. I'd rather fly the P-51 than the F-22, so I guess I was just born about 40 years too late.

To each his own.

I'm laughing a little because I love the F22....

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by kmcd

Oh well. I'd rather fly the P-51 than the F-22, so I guess I was just born about 40 years too late.

To each his own.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I'm laughing a little because I love the F22....

:seesaw:

[Grandeos]

The performance potential of a hybrid, or dare I say... ELECTRIC vehicle is simply amazing. For the automotive industry, it is EVOLUTION, not dilution.

Technology's purpose is to enhance. Sure, it may be a bit jarring for people who are in their comfort zone, however you cannot fight it. It will continue to evolve whether you like it or not. That being said.... GM knows that the majority of it's customer base, especially for the Camaro, will always want a V8. So even though the "idea" of a powertrain will always evolve, the car buyer's preferences will never be ignored.

Take the manual transmission for example. It used to be the norm, then as automatics became more reliable, and made the driving experience easier and better (for the majority of non-car people), they became more accepted, until that became the "normal." Now automatic transmissions account for over 80% of Camaros sold, and even more percentage of all new vehicles sold each year in the US. The same will happen with electric / hybrid powertrains. Once they get refined and more reliable, they too will become the "norm," and internal combustion engines will be either a performance (or preference) option, and maybe get phased out all together.

But dont forget, as with the transmissions, not all change is bad. For example, Dual Clutch transmissions have delivered even better performance than the most talented driver with a stick. "Purists" may still want to row their own gears (and I dont blame them), but facts are... Automatics are now better and faster than manuals. The same will happen with electric powertrains. Once they find their groove, I would bet that their performance will far exceed what we know today.

So if you love "the automobile"..... have some faith. Because the many minds behind the cars you love, and the cars you have yet to know of (I am one of the many).... are all in love with "the automobile" too.

[ECCamaro]

Get one while they are still BEEFY!

5th Generation Rules! :party0038:

[Bowtiepower00]

Let's give Fbodfather and the rest of the Camaro design and build team a little more credit here, they did a terrific job on the Gen 5 and I think it's safe to assume they will do an equally fine job on the Gen 6. They are Camaro enthusiasts, and know the demographic.

A lot of hate about a Turbo 4, but lets be honest, prior to the release of the 5th gen, the V6 was viewed in the same light that many of you are portraying the 4 banger. I think it's safe to assume that the 6th gen will outperform the 5th gen, trim level to trim level, regardless of engine displacement.

The current V6 and proposed 4 cyl are not designed for the hardcore musclecar enthusiast, but they provide the sales that allow the V8 models to exist. I would venture to guess that a large majority of those who purchase non-SS models do not care what drivetrain is under the sheetmetal if the performance is there. I would have never considered buying a V6 Camaro prior to the 5th Gen and release of the LLT, but for 95% of the driving I do the performance is more than adequate.

If gas is $5 a gallon when the G6 is released, a high MPG 4 cyl would sell much better than a V8. The V8 will still be an option for those who want the power that comes with it. I am not a fan of hybrids, but if a hybrid option allows the Camaro to sell in larger numbers and continue to be built, I am all for it.

Take a look at how easy it is to add power to a turbocharged engine, most 4 cyl turbo'd cars can gain an easy 50-100 horse with simple bolt-ons and a tune. The current LLT is nearly maxed out from the factory. I would like to see the V6 live on in the next platform, but I don't see how a N/A V6 fits in with a Turbo 4, or a Turbo V6 fitting in with the V8. I do however think a N/A 4 cyl would be a big mistake.

I've read many posts in these forums from people complaining about the size of the G5, but now that the G6 is confirmed to be smaller everyone wants it to stay the same size. I absolutely love my 5th Gen, top to bottom, but a smaller, lighter, better handling car with better MPG is music to my ears. I expect the outside to shrink without compromising interior space much if at all. Visibility is not an issue on the current car, IMO, a bit of seat time and all of my concerns disappeared, but I expect it to be somewhat improved due to all of the negative press floating around with regard to the current model.

I fully expect the G6 to be as much of a grand slam as the G5 has been, my biggest question revolves around the styling. It is going to be difficult to come up with a design that can improve over the current one, IMO.

Are the Gen V engines going to be used at all in the 5th gen Camaro platform toward the end of the cycle, similar to the LT1/ LS1 4th gen, or are they going to be used exclusively in the 6th gen?

Bottom line, the release of the new car will coinside with my planned purchase of another Camaro (next one will be an SS), if I like the looks of the new one I will wait for it, if not, I will purchase a Gen 5 SS before they are discontinued.