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Old 09-19-2013, 11:01 AM   #323
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double bubble roof for the win!! lol


(not saying I like alltrbo's entire design better than your's Doc...just saying I like the roof with character)

Good stuff guys.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
double bubble roof for the win!! lol


(not saying I like alltrbo's entire design better than your's Doc...just saying I like the roof with character)

Good stuff guys.

Ditto!
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by ALLTRBO View Post
Thanks, and no problem...It's your car, tweak away!

Couple clarifications:

-The upper grille should still fit, just lower the hardware slightly. Seriously though, in this view you can't see the dimension that shows how much the nose extends forward. It would be 'slightly' longer than yours and come further forward in the middle (again... I emphasize 'slightly'), and of course the slope of the fenders would be a slight bit different so it would all come together properly. That would give it a little more clearance. It does seem doable to me, and there are many longitudinal front engine V8 cars with lower profiles than this. I do think it looks much sleeker and meaner with the lower position, but I'm all about being realistic and of course, it's a few pixels on a screen so I could be wrong.

-The intake insert is a good idea. It's one of many details I would have added had I not decided to call it 'good enough for now'.
I think your LED to turn signal transition is good, I wanted to play with that more.

-The actual headlights aren't visible in the pic, the white lines are either color or chrome accents, or LED accents (I hadn't decided). I think they look good and also look proper referenced to the lower edge, but that's JMHO. The actual headlights are a projector style HID with a completely flat black housing and sunken in a bit, similar to this but without the silver ring (or the JDM yO badassness).
http://www.carpart4u.com/product/198...our-Cars-.html
From what little I've researched, this style can be legal if done right and by a manufacturer, and will output more than enough light in the proper pattern for both highs and lows.
They would be visible in real life, but very subdued (when off). I didn't work that in because I'd have had to spend more time thinking and trial-and-error'ing. It's yet one more detail that I had to short-change.

-I did notice the license plate size error, I just spent all my time elsewhere. On that note, I removed the license plate early on and noticed that the space between the lower and upper grilles looked way too large, which the license plate hid, even with my taller lower grille. That is another small reason for lowering the upper grille and raising the lower grille edge, I think it looked kind-of SUV-ish without the license plate. I did plan on leaving it on in the final version, but wanted to see what it looked like without it.

-I visualized the lower edge of the fascia as having a slightly recessed vertical lip dropping down further than the part you can see, that the GFX/splitter piece bolts onto (from the rear). That lip continues across the bottom of the holes for the side vents and is where part of the LED (and not-visible plastic duct) are mounted to. I don't know if you've seen an IROC-Z bumper without the GFX, but very similar to that, except that one spans the whole distance of the lower grille. I played with many variations of the side vents including the one that you changed it to, but the one I ended up with looks the best by far to me.
This is one bit of design that I don't think we'll see, the simple GFX style has exited stage right in favor of more integrated and stylized fascias. That's unfortunate because I think it can still look great, as demonstrated here.

-With the lower cutout I was thinking of the ZL1 and how thin its edge is. I was also thinking that the simple lower grille that I hadn't designed yet would help support it. I might not have that to scale, though, so it may be too thin anyway.

-I think the roof humps are essential to the styling, but that's admittedly subjective. If you notice, rather than lower the middle section, I raised the outer sections, which would also give a 'slight' bit more headroom (which is the function that started that style way back anyway). Also, I believe that the roof ditch needs to be there because it's an efficient method of construction nowadays, pretty much across the board. I don't think we'll see one-piece roof and B-pillars anymore, at least not any time soon.

-I widened the visual part of the A-pillars slightly because I think that area would have reduced visibility anyway because of mandatory A-pillar airbags and stronger structure in these current times. Not as artificially wide (for style) as the 5thgen, granted, but moreso than your original.

-I left the height of the hood scoop alone, I actually just lowered the hood around the scoop to give the hood some definition and a visually more aggressive profile, without going too far into the engine bay (I think... I've seen "worse", look at the C7). It comes back up where the hood meets the fenders. With the usual lip around the hood I don't think this would cause any issues, and has, by far, the cleanest look to it vs. coming up anywhere else. This also gives it more muscular looking fenders. To my eye the flat hood (except scoop) looks rather boring. I know you said you weren't done with the above areas, I just thought it worth explaining anyway.

...ARGHHHHH. I had more typed but it got lost when the post didn't get through. Fortunately I had saved this much. It's too late now to remember what I wrote, I'll try later. G'night for now!
Good feedback. I've put together a comparison between your render and my variation to show what the actual height dimensions would be to give you an idea of what these would really be like on the street. I've also made some revisions in my variation that added the hood and roof changes you'd made, plus I made the turn signal/LED light bar join a bit wider. You'll also notice I made a correct license plate based on an actual photo.

Using the 6" tall license plate as a ruler of sorts, you can see what the actual heights would be for various elements on the cars. Dimensions are in inches.
Name:  2016 Camaro Concept Meas.jpg
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At 5" there isn't much ground clearance even on mine which is the non-lowered version. At 4" yours is quite low; okay for a track car but probably too low for a daily driver.

From the ground to the bottom of the upper grill on yours is 19"; that's the distance from the ground to the center of my knee (I'm 5' 11") to give you an idea how low this really is. To the top of the upper grill is only 24"; a stock Camaro is about 30" so a 6" drop is quite a bit. Mine is only 2.5" taller but that could make the difference between radiators, and various hardware fitting or not.

Your raised hood bulge in the center would probably be enough to allow the engine and it's hardware to fit. Assemblies on the side of the engine might be a little tight.

At 47" for yours and 48" for mine, the total vehicle height is pretty low for a 4 seater. My 2010 Camaro which is on 19" wheels and I've lowered it 1.5" is 50" from the ground to the top of the roof and it noticeably looks lowered. I'm okay with a 47" or 48" tall car but I don't know if the average owner would like a car that low; especially if it's a daily driver. They might though if the car looks good enough. These designs definitely start to move the Camaro from just a muscle car towards more of a muscle/sports GT hybrid. Fast in the straights AND the curves.

I know what you're saying about cars being out there with chassis' that could fit these dimensions but we've already got the fixed-dimension Alpha platform they've committed to so whatever we do has to accommodate that. I wish I had the various dimensions of the Alpha but I don't. I'm just guessing and eyeballing these things. If these were to be made into actual car bodies to fit on that chassis there would undoubtedly have to be a lot of adjustments.

I now understand your headlight idea. From the original drawing you posted I thought those blue "u" shapes were LED headlights of some kind. The view we've drawn is somewhat misleading because this gives a camera view of the cars that would only look like this if you were laying on your stomach looking forward, so it makes elements look higher than they really are. If you were standing up looking down, these fronts are quite low. The headlights on yours are only about 2 feet off the ground so if they're recessed back under the hood you wouldn't see much of them. Making them black so they're basically invisible might not matter if they're hardly visible anyways. I'd have to check but I believe there's a legal minimum height requirement for headlights if I'm not mistaken. Yours are definitely interesting style-wise though.

The extended fog lamp cutouts you have would only look like that if you were laying down on the ground looking forward. The bottom of the cutout is only about 8-9" from the ground so standing up looking down there wouldn't be that much visual difference between yours and mine. I played with the size as well like you did but finally decided to settle on a dimension that was visually similar to the outer ends of the upper grille dimensions. I've had the front of my car off and there isn't any structural support in that area other than the polyurethane front fascia. The fog lights are attached to the back of the fascia so if this design were used it would basically work the same way. With yours there's additional hidden structural support of some kind?

I put the roof ditch in; still playing with dimensions though. This concept car design pulls the width of the cabin in farther than the 5th gen design so the driver and passenger sit closer together. Roof height where their head would be is an issue; something I'd have to spend more time studying and measuring.

The A pillars of mine are as wide as yours; you're just seeing them at an angle so they appear thinner. The insides would have the thickness to contain roll structure support and airbags.

As far as hoods and hood lines I think these are good looking hoods. I deliberately lowered the hood line and increased the opening of the forward view on the original design to give more visibility to the driver. The view outward for the driver and passenger should be pretty spectacular for driving. With your eyes being only about 3 1/2 feet off the ground looking forward over that swept down hood the view on the track and in the curves would be terrific.

I keep getting more and more involved with the thought process on this project lol. Now if only I was getting paid for this....
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Old 09-19-2013, 12:09 PM   #326
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This has come a long way since I was last on this thread. Good job Doc
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:28 PM   #327
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Thank you! I'm really happy with the way this is going and how people in general have responded. Based on the high number of views it seems there's a fair amount of interest and hardly any negativity so overall I think this is going quite well.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:33 PM   #328
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This is a good exercise. For my taste, I am missing some articulation in the rear upper quarters. The rear deck is too linear, and as a whole I am not getting a feel that this design is speaking of what a camaro could look like. The earlier renderings had some nice detailing cues in the front and aft views, but even with the profile of the earlier renderings, the body seemed too linear and the A & C pillars seemed a bit generic and not taking a stab at a camaro design cue.

Additionally, I am not feeling the indentations at the front fenders (from the scion and mitsu twins), and the rear light panel from the charger speak....actually with the red signal bars...is an interesting move that looks neat. Some of the trim details like the breathing gills at the lower quarters and the openings in the bumper are busy and aren't connecting with the design.

Try doing a clay model based on your sketches. I feel that the body profile is missing some volume shapes (such as contouring at the rear quarters, deck,). 3-d studies with plastic materials such as clay, and maybe more studies with a CAD 3d system could add some life to the design, and perhaps point it more towards a sense of what a camaro (meaning a new generation with cues to reflect its heritage) could look like.

Just my opinion. Keep up the enthusiasm.....you have some nice ideas that could develop into a feasible look of a future camaro.
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:41 PM   #329
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Here's a revised view with the recessed hood effect, recessed roof center, and I increased the height of the fog light cutouts, cutting the support area below them in half. Not sure if I like them taller or not. The other ones being thinner look wider to me. A subtle change but a surprisingly different look and feel.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:23 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f5journal View Post
This has come a long way since I was last on this thread. Good job Doc
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lbls1 View Post
This is a good exercise. For my taste, I am missing some articulation in the rear upper quarters. The rear deck is too linear, and as a whole I am not getting a feel that this design is speaking of what a camaro could look like. The earlier renderings had some nice detailing cues in the front and aft views, but even with the profile of the earlier renderings, the body seemed too linear and the A & C pillars seemed a bit generic and not taking a stab at a camaro design cue.

Additionally, I am not feeling the indentations at the front fenders (from the scion and mitsu twins), and the rear light panel from the charger speak....actually with the red signal bars...is an interesting move that looks neat. Some of the trim details like the breathing gills at the lower quarters and the openings in the bumper are busy and aren't connecting with the design.

Try doing a clay model based on your sketches. I feel that the body profile is missing some volume shapes (such as contouring at the rear quarters, deck,). 3-d studies with plastic materials such as clay, and maybe more studies with a CAD 3d system could add some life to the design, and perhaps point it more towards a sense of what a camaro (meaning a new generation with cues to reflect its heritage) could look like.

Just my opinion. Keep up the enthusiasm.....you have some nice ideas that could develop into a feasible look of a future camaro.
Thank you for the feedback. The rear deck isn't linear; I just haven't been able to draw it the way I envision it. The center section goes down smoothly from the rear window to the body edge, but the transition to the two winglets is different. The transition to those goes smoothly from the fender sides and that height carries across the trunk/deck only to the width of the winglets. The center section drops down between them looking somewhat like a recessed area if you were looking at it from above. Hard to describe but once (if) I get it into 3D you'll be able to see the effect.

Due to the restrictions of roll support, airbags and forward visibility, there isn't a whole lot of room for variation in an A pillar. They are what they are. C pillars are a different story. One of the complaints about rearward visibility inside the Camaro deals with the C pillars blocking your view. I was trying to make them less pronounced to improve visibility. This of course departs from the traditional C pillar style Camaros are recognized for but there's not much choice if you want to make them thinner/smaller to improve visibility. Making it thinner and smaller kind of forces it into looking somewhat plain and unexciting but I felt that was a reasonable compromise to gain the benefit of improved visibility for the driver.

The indents at the front fenders... the Camaro always had it at the back but all I did was basically reverse it and move it to the front like the new Stingray has. The idea is to visually elongate the back of the car to give it more of a sweeping wedge towards the front; the exact same idea the new Stingray illustrates so well. If I can get this design into 3D the effect will be much more pronounced and give a true presentation of the idea.

The gills on the side... I originally wanted to have just a single cutout but people said they liked the 3 gills effect from the 5th gen so I put it in there. These are functional and provide cooling intakes for brakes and (on the 1LE, ZL1, Z/28) the oil coolers for the transmission and differential. If I can get this modeled in 3D I'll do both ways and see how people feel about it.

The openings in the bumper... I'm assuming you mean the slots in the rear bumper where the reverse lights are? That's strictly a visual styling trick to help break up the large amount of plain space that would otherwise be there. I'm thinking of making the reverse lights even longer, or they could in fact be the whole length and that would achieve the same effect.

I would LOVE to have this modeled in clay; if only I knew how to sculpt with clay lol. That would just have to be something else to add to my plate of non-paying/not-getting-things-done-around-the-house activities that I need to learn. The 3D modeling in software is doable, I just have to get through the fairly steep learning curve of the software.

Like I stated at the beginning of this thread this doesn't look exactly like I envision due to my visualization/illustration skills not being good enough yet. I'm getting better as I go though as should be evident when you compare the first page of this thread with the current ones.

If I can get this modeled successfully in this 3D software I have, you should finally be able to see how this would really look. There's more going on in the body visuals than my 2d illustration skills have been able to show.

Great and thoughtful comments and feedback, thank you for taking the time to contribute.
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Old 09-19-2013, 02:33 PM   #331
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You did a lot of work there.
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Old 09-19-2013, 03:11 PM   #332
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Thank you!



Thank you for the feedback. The rear deck isn't linear; I just haven't been able to draw it the way I envision it. The center section goes down smoothly from the rear window to the body edge, but the transition to the two winglets is different. The transition to those goes smoothly from the fender sides and that height carries across the trunk/deck only to the width of the winglets. The center section drops down between them looking somewhat like a recessed area if you were looking at it from above. Hard to describe but once (if) I get it into 3D you'll be able to see the effect.

Due to the restrictions of roll support, airbags and forward visibility, there isn't a whole lot of room for variation in an A pillar. They are what they are. C pillars are a different story. One of the complaints about rearward visibility inside the Camaro deals with the C pillars blocking your view. I was trying to make them less pronounced to improve visibility. This of course departs from the traditional C pillar style Camaros are recognized for but there's not much choice if you want to make them thinner/smaller to improve visibility. Making it thinner and smaller kind of forces it into looking somewhat plain and unexciting but I felt that was a reasonable compromise to gain the benefit of improved visibility for the driver.

The indents at the front fenders... the Camaro always had it at the back but all I did was basically reverse it and move it to the front like the new Stingray has. The idea is to visually elongate the back of the car to give it more of a sweeping wedge towards the front; the exact same idea the new Stingray illustrates so well. If I can get this design into 3D the effect will be much more pronounced and give a true presentation of the idea.

The gills on the side... I originally wanted to have just a single cutout but people said they liked the 3 gills effect from the 5th gen so I put it in there. These are functional and provide cooling intakes for brakes and (on the 1LE, ZL1, Z/28) the oil coolers for the transmission and differential. If I can get this modeled in 3D I'll do both ways and see how people feel about it.

The openings in the bumper... I'm assuming you mean the slots in the rear bumper where the reverse lights are? That's strictly a visual styling trick to help break up the large amount of plain space that would otherwise be there. I'm thinking of making the reverse lights even longer, or they could in fact be the whole length and that would achieve the same effect.

I would LOVE to have this modeled in clay; if only I knew how to sculpt with clay lol. That would just have to be something else to add to my plate of non-paying/not-getting-things-done-around-the-house activities that I need to learn. The 3D modeling in software is doable, I just have to get through the fairly steep learning curve of the software.

Like I stated at the beginning of this thread this doesn't look exactly like I envision due to my visualization/illustration skills not being good enough yet. I'm getting better as I go though as should be evident when you compare the first page of this thread with the current ones.

If I can get this modeled successfully in this 3D software I have, you should finally be able to see how this would really look. There's more going on in the body visuals than my 2d illustration skills have been able to show.

Great and thoughtful comments and feedback, thank you for taking the time to contribute.
I was trying to think of that clay that my instructor was telling us to use for our projects.....I forgot the name (edit...Plasticine). It is more or less artists clay but in a pale white or ivory color. Its very useful in developing concepts (a parti) with designs. Eh you could also use play dough...a bit more smelly but it might do the trick.

Good exercise overall.
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Old 09-19-2013, 04:17 PM   #333
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Nice work Doc! Do you make house calls?
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Old 09-19-2013, 05:11 PM   #334
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I was trying to think of that clay that my instructor was telling us to use for our projects.....I forgot the name (edit...Plasticine). It is more or less artists clay but in a pale white or ivory color. Its very useful in developing concepts (a parti) with designs. Eh you could also use play dough...a bit more smelly but it might do the trick.

Good exercise overall.
Plasticine... okay I'll look into that. I'm this far into the project so... why not! lol It might actually help me visualize and work out some details. Thanks for the tip!

Quote:
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Nice work Doc! Do you make house calls?
Hmm... depends. Do you pay in Pedder's upgrades? Actually I think I have most of your stuff already in my car lol. Love the way it transformed the car's handling. Do you need some concept designs of something? Who knows... being a freelance concepter (is that a word?) could be a new line of work for me hehe.
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Old 09-19-2013, 07:55 PM   #335
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Gah! So many words! My head is spinning! (or that could be the meds, not sure)...

All I can say for now is... keep up the good work!

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Old 09-19-2013, 09:00 PM   #336
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Doc's posts are always worth the time to spend reading.
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