[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

Its 100% true. In Springfield IL, we fought tooth and nail to get our new powerplant with the green nazi approved scrubber approved! It delayed the plant nearly 7 years! Now, 15 years into its operation, they say it will be decommissioned within the next 10 years to save the earth!!! What a complete waste!

My post was related to Texas. He/she is wrong 100 percent for the cause of our grid failure. Again, the facts are easy to find. But some people just like spewing their Fox, Newsmax, OANN talking points, which is what they did.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

The franchise contracts that GM had with the wind-down Pontiac dealers make this type of "product swap / rebadging" difficult. To be able to get out of the contracts and go through bankruptcy, GM has to demonstrate how and why those contracts/assets are bad. It doesn't do the company any favors to claim in court that a brand is not profitable, then turn around and sell their products under another brand. It's not as simple as what I can put into 3 or 4 sentances here, but it's the gist. GM went through that pain with Oldsmobile...

I've only really seen this once where that Saturn VUE became the Chevrolet Captiva (fleet only sales) after Saturn's wind-down. I presume the reason this was able to be done is because the VUE already existed as a Chevrolet branded vehicle in other markets.

It wasn't just the dealers. The union made a lot of noise about just rebadging Pontiac/Oldsmobile models as Chevrolet/Buicks. Buick badly wanted to get the Bravada rebadged to the Rainer immediately, but it took some time and and negotiation. The union was still pissed.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I know the G8 became the SS eventually, but like the 6th gen, I don't think GM made much an effort telling anyone about it. I saw one at a dealership once and had to take a couple of double takes to realize what I was looking at. It is possible to take the sleeper look too far.

GM had a contract to sell X amount of cars here in the US. That's basically why it happened. Same applied to the Holden Monaro aka Pontiac GTO that was sold here.

From what I remember, I believe it involved a deal with the AU government and funding to Holden that ultimately stipulated X number of cars had to be imported to the US. I may have some of that wrong but it was along these lines.

The base G8 and the GXP model (same as the SS basically) could have easily been the new gen Impala and would have sold. Dodge clearly sold a ton of the V6 modeled Chargers/300C without an issue. Even the V8 models sold well all things considered.

Now throw in a manual trans and a 400 HP v8? Had I had the money to buy both cars (my 5th gen Camaro at the time) plus the SS, I would have done it. I think a lot more would too.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

It wasn't just the dealers. The union made a lot of noise about just rebadging Pontiac/Oldsmobile models as Chevrolet/Buicks. Buick badly wanted to get the Bravada rebadged to the Rainer immediately, but it took some time and and negotiation. The union was still pissed.

This kind of over the top rebranding is what ultimately doomed Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Saturn. Pretty much everything under those brands were re-branded Chevy's or imported models. Why keep doing it?

Hell, the Pontiac Firebird/Trans-Am stole so many sales from the Camaro that it ultimately is part of the reason why the production was ended.

Honestly, half the cars left in production right now for GM are just rebranded vehicles anyways.... nothing wrong with developing a platform and making them different....but let's be honest, some of them are literally just different front/rear fascias and maybe some different tail lights..

[GXP08jrf]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

It wasn't just the dealers. The union made a lot of noise about just rebadging Pontiac/Oldsmobile models as Chevrolet/Buicks. Buick badly wanted to get the Bravada rebadged to the Rainer immediately, but it took some time and and negotiation. The union was still pissed.

Could be, but I'm not sure why the Union would complain. You'd think they'd want as many products as possible to build instead of maybe losing a shift in the plant or whatever.

Regardless, Ranier and Bravada both had a 2004 Model Year, so I have to believe that the Ranier was in the works at the same time they were starting to take a harder look of closing down Olds. Not sure GM was thinking ahead, but my guess is they wanted to get an SUV in every showroom asap, regardless of Oldmosbile's future. And if Olds had remaind viable, we'd still have seen Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, Ranier, 97x and Ascender being built alongside one another.

I can see Oldsmobile complaining that Ranier would cannabilize their sales, but I don't know why the union would complain if they were building Bravadas, Raniers or any mix of the two so long as the unit volume was the same.

[Alan47717]

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

Could be, but I'm not sure why the Union would complain. You'd think they'd want as many products as possible to build instead of maybe losing a shift in the plant or whatever.

Regardless, Ranier and Bravada both had a 2004 Model Year, so I have to believe that the Ranier was in the works at the same time they were starting to take a harder look of closing down Olds. Not sure GM was thinking ahead, but my guess is they wanted to get an SUV in every showroom asap, regardless of Oldmosbile's future. And if Olds had remaind viable, we'd still have seen Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, Ranier, 97x and Ascender being built alongside one another.

I can see Oldsmobile complaining that Ranier would cannabilize their sales, but I don't know why the union would complain if they were building Bravadas, Raniers or any mix of the two so long as the unit volume was the same.

It wasn't the rebadged Rainer in itself. It was rebadging any vehicle of a division that was getting axed. You're right they would be happy for any rebadging that meant potential new volume.

Consolidation was the issue because they saw consolidation as lost jobs.

[GreenZLE]

Originally Posted by Capricio

If the EPA reqs for highway mileage stay on their current trajectory, any new ICE by then will be an under 1.0L displacment quad-cam staged turbos grenade. But yeah, tell us again how the OEMs aren't being forced into EVs. I pray the aftermarket parts segment steps into the void to keep legacy NA ICE going past 500,000 miles.

EXACTLY!!! Its way passed time to roll back EPA regs to where they were in 2000. The returns are insignificant on emission reductions over the last 10+ years. CO2 had to be declared a pollutant to give new life to the cause.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

EXACTLY!!! Its way passed time to roll back EPA regs to where they were in 2000. The returns are insignificant on emission reductions over the last 10+ years. CO2 had to be declared a pollutant to give new life to the cause.

By 2045, I envision plants dying, crop failures, and mass deforestation, as foliage suffocates from lacking the carbon dioxide it needs to survive. Meanwhile, us old timers will survive, struggling to keep our ICE cars functioning well past their serviceable lifecycle, just like the car-scene in the utopia that was achieved in Castro's post-embargo Cuba.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by GreenZLE

EXACTLY!!! Its way passed time to roll back EPA regs to where they were in 2000. The returns are insignificant on emission reductions over the last 10+ years. CO2 had to be declared a pollutant to give new life to the cause.

Energy dept. rule: 6.67 efficiency multiplier for EV (lab mpg equivalent).
https://mishtalk.com/economics/biden...payer-expense/

Fed Agency rule-making-enforcing power may change.
https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/01/s...scard-chevron/

[genxer]

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

Could be, but I'm not sure why the Union would complain. You'd think they'd want as many products as possible to build instead of maybe losing a shift in the plant or whatever.

Regardless, Ranier and Bravada both had a 2004 Model Year, so I have to believe that the Ranier was in the works at the same time they were starting to take a harder look of closing down Olds. Not sure GM was thinking ahead, but my guess is they wanted to get an SUV in every showroom asap, regardless of Oldmosbile's future. And if Olds had remaind viable, we'd still have seen Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, Ranier, 97x and Ascender being built alongside one another.

I can see Oldsmobile complaining that Ranier would cannabilize their sales, but I don't know why the union would complain if they were building Bravadas, Raniers or any mix of the two so long as the unit volume was the same.

'04 was announced as Old's last year, a couple years before, just Bravada, Alero, and Silhouette. With Intrigue and Aurora ending earlier. I couldn't stand the direction they had went with it.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Alan47717

I know the G8 became the SS eventually, but like the 6th gen, I don't think GM made much an effort telling anyone about it. I saw one at a dealership once and had to take a couple of double takes to realize what I was looking at. It is possible to take the sleeper look too far.

The Vibe was also a unique (and very successful) Pontiac model. I owned two of them and while I wasn't crazy about the Toyota/Pontiac hybrid aspect, they were very good cars. The styling had just been refreshed and unless Toyota coincidentally wanted out of the partnership, killing Pontiac also a successful model with no GM equivalent.

Someone else has written that many GMC buyers don't consider Chevy as a second purchase choice. Now that's advertising.

Actually, it kinda was tied to advertizing / marketing. At about this time GMC was heavy into the “Professional Grade” marketing campaign. A lot of people who had never purchased a GM vehicle, many with a negative perception of Chevrolet as a brand were fine with going into a GMC dealership to see what this “Professional Grade” hoopla was all about. The Denali trim was also top of line and a high percentage of GMC vehicles were driving off the lots with Denali trim.

[CTRifecta]

I respect the opinion of the article author, but disagree with the criticism of the CEO and linking that directly to the Camaros demise.

Cadillac just revealed the MY24 CT5, and they made massive updates to the interior to continue to keep it competitive. They invest in their products that sell. The CT5s success and backing by GM makes the Camaro discontinuation harder to swallow, since it's on the same platform and made in the same plant...


This article resonates more with me as to why the Camaro died
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...served-better/

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Capricio

If the EPA reqs for highway mileage stay on their current trajectory, any new ICE by then will be an under 1.0L displacment quad-cam staged turbos grenade. But yeah, tell us again how the OEMs aren't being forced into EVs. I pray the aftermarket parts segment steps into the void to keep legacy NA ICE going past 500,000 miles.

They are being forced to produce "zero emissions vehicles" not EVs. And that's California. The OEMs are making the choice that EVs are their best path forward based on current cost and infrastructure and ability to make a profit. A FCEV would also comply but that has different hurdles.

And yes, the 1.3 L 3-cylinder Turbo in the new Chevy and Buick SUVs aren't thrilling in any way shape or form. But I assure they meet GMs durability requirements. So they won't be grenades.

As for the aftermarket in 2045, there will be fewer ICEs on the road so Gas prices will likely be higher. And heck you can still get parts for a 57 Chevy. In a scary sense, 2045 is only 21 years away. Yikes

I'm driving an EV right now and there are only 2 issues. One, cost. They are still a more expensive choice. Two, access to Level 2, 3 or Supercharging if you can't charge at home. If you can charge at home it almost becomes a no brainer for an EV for 90 plus percent of your driving. And the other 10 is probably back to access to charging.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

No reason why if Toyota/GM wanted to continue the partnership the Vibe couldn't become a Chevy either.

I don't recall the unwinding the partnership too well, but we do know the plant where the Vibe was built is now building Tesla's.

I was in Product Portfolio Planning at this time and involved in a number of the “who stays / who goes” scenario developments. The Toyota / GM partnership was a parallel but largely unrelated issue. The partnership was ending. Period. There was no activity that I was aware of to consider rebadging Vibe.

Originally Posted by shaffe

IIRC GM never intended to sell the SS in large quantities. I believe it had something to do with either restrictions on how many they could import from Australia or the exchange rate + a combination of just keeping the assembly line rolling.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

GM had a contract to sell X amount of cars here in the US. That's basically why it happened. Same applied to the Holden Monaro aka Pontiac GTO that was sold here.

From what I remember, I believe it involved a deal with the AU government and funding to Holden that ultimately stipulated X number of cars had to be imported to the US. I may have some of that wrong but it was along these lines.

The base G8 and the GXP model (same as the SS basically) could have easily been the new gen Impala and would have sold. Dodge clearly sold a ton of the V6 modeled Chargers/300C without an issue. Even the V8 models sold well all things considered.

Now throw in a manual trans and a 400 HP v8? Had I had the money to buy both cars (my 5th gen Camaro at the time) plus the SS, I would have done it. I think a lot more would too.

My memory on this one may be a bit foggy, especially with regards to numbers, but the issue here was trade restrictions, not anything contractual. The was a ceiling on the number of vehicles any OEM could import from Australia. Ford ran into the same ceiling with the Mercury Capri that they imported from Australia. This ceiling is also why any discussion of importing the Holden Ute as an El Camino usually lasted about 10 minutes.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

This kind of over the top rebranding is what ultimately doomed Pontiac, Oldsmobile, and Saturn. Pretty much everything under those brands were re-branded Chevy's or imported models. Why keep doing it?

Badge engineering was definitely an issue and I would say a big part of what drove GM into bankruptcy.

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Hell, the Pontiac Firebird/Trans-Am stole so many sales from the Camaro that it ultimately is part of the reason why the production was ended.

This was probably one of the areas where badge engineering did not hurt. Firebird and Camaro had different enough styling that Firebird was often the third leg on the 3-legged Camaro - Mustang - Firebird stool and buyer groups of Camaro vs Firebird were very vocal and competitive. At the same time, building both cars on the same line was super efficient. Maybe too efficient. I recall when I ordered my C4 my dealer took me out to the lot and showed me a Camaro that had a Firebird badge on the passenger fender. The kiss of death for Camaro / Firebird in 2002 was the lack of an appropriate RWD architecture that could pass new crash test requirements and fuel economy requirements. Sigma was considered but Cadillac wanted to keep it Cadillac only and it was also over-subscribed in the planning horizon. Ironically, most of the vehicles planned for Sigma at the time Camaro was excluded never saw the light of day.

Originally Posted by GXP08jrf

Could be, but I'm not sure why the Union would complain. You'd think they'd want as many products as possible to build instead of maybe losing a shift in the plant or whatever.

Regardless, Ranier and Bravada both had a 2004 Model Year, so I have to believe that the Ranier was in the works at the same time they were starting to take a harder look of closing down Olds. Not sure GM was thinking ahead, but my guess is they wanted to get an SUV in every showroom asap, regardless of Oldmosbile's future. And if Olds had remaind viable, we'd still have seen Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, Ranier, 97x and Ascender being built alongside one another.

I can see Oldsmobile complaining that Ranier would cannabilize their sales, but I don't know why the union would complain if they were building Bravadas, Raniers or any mix of the two so long as the unit volume was the same.

There was never an intent to have Bravada and Rainier co-exist. Rainier was developed only because Oldsmobile was being folded. Because Planning tends to know these things ahead of the general public it may have looked like they were to coexist, but they were not.